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Post by Corvo on Sept 8, 2004 12:14:27 GMT 1
First I'll quote the part of the rules I'll be referring to (mostly..):
Regarding the "moved through"/"moving from"/"moving into": Q1: Does that mean that certain strongholds divide two regions thus can force the fellowship to move through (I guess Moria does)? Q2: Does "moved from" and "moving into" refer to a region containing a stronghold or a region adjacent to a stronghold?? Q3: It's just 1 hunt-tile, right? Q4: As far as I understand, the FP player can choose to move less and thus prevent the "moving into/though/from" penalty... right?
Q5: When referring to a "Shadow Stronghold", does this include a captured "free peoples stronghold"? Q6: Same question as #3, I guess... when a "Shadow Stronghold" is captured by the free peoples, does this mean the fellowship is safe to move into/through/from?
About hunting...: Q7: Let's say the fellowship were last declared in Lorien, and later on Lorien falls to Shadow forces. When a Hunt for the Ring occurs, does this mean there will be (atleast 1) re-roll available?
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I hope I'm not being too much of a pain-in-the-*ss asking all these questions.
Anyways: Thanks in advance!
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Veldrin
Lord of the Nazgûl
Posts: 1,305
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Post by Veldrin on Sept 8, 2004 13:01:30 GMT 1
Q1: No, Strongholds do not divide the Regions, they exist within the Regions. Moving through a Region containing a Stronghold is the same as moving through the Stronghold.
Q2: It means moving through/to/from the Region containing the Stronghold.
Q3: Yes it is one extra tile if moving from/through/to a Region containing a Stronghold in addition to the tile turned for tha Shadow's succesfull Hunt. A total of two tiles.
Q4: Yes, the FP doesn't have to move the full number of spaces.
Q5: Yes, it includes captured Strongholds.
Q6: Yes.
Q7: Yes, as soon as Lorien falls it will give one additional reroll for a Stronghold in the Fellowship's last known position. It will probably also give one reroll for armies present in the same Region.
[glow=green,2,300]Veldrin[/glow]
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Post by stevehope on Sept 8, 2004 20:06:00 GMT 1
I believe that's incorrect actually, Veldrin. I **thought** that I had seen in a quote elsewhere from Roberto or Francesco that only Shadow strongholds, not captured Free Peoples strongholds, count for the re-roll purpose (though of course an army still would).
Which raises the question I guess of whether a captured Shadow stronghold would provide a re-roll.
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Post by Corvo on Sept 8, 2004 21:32:15 GMT 1
O... k... I hope someone can shed some definitive light on this. Francesco, Roberto... we need help!
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Post by cybernex on Sept 8, 2004 22:33:22 GMT 1
A Shadow stronghold always provide a re-roll. This is not related to control - even if the Free People would establish themselves in Moria, I may easily imagine that a lot of bad things would be still lurking in its depths... On the other hand, a FP Stronghold controlled by the Shadow does not count against the Fellowship. Of course if a SA army is there, that will give one re-roll.
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steveowen
Ranger of Ithilien
PlayTester
Posts: 70
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Post by steveowen on Sept 8, 2004 22:37:55 GMT 1
I believe we unconsciously played the way stevehope intimated Roberto rules in that we just re-rolled for Nazgul and armies if say Lorien was taken whilst the fellowship was still there. The opposite situation never arose in over 50 of our games. Logic could dictate either way. I think we need to cincentrate more on playing the game rather than making every rule foolproof! Of course most of us/you need to obtain a copy first!
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Post by stevehope on Sept 9, 2004 3:23:12 GMT 1
I'd certainly rather be playing! I think most of the questions that arise are due to conflicts between the rules as written and preconceptions that the player has about how the rules "should" work...In this case, the rules clearly state that Shadow strongholds have the effect (regardless of control), but intuition might lead you either way as you have noted. MOST, but not all, rules questions can be answered by a close, literal reading of the rules. Speaking of which, I didn't think about it when I was reading them but in retrospect I agree with the post on BGG about how the rulebook should be built around the action dice, with an example of a turn of play at the end. In the designers' notes on the website there is a list of every action which you can take with each die result--something similar would help the uninitiated greatly with the rulebook. On another topic, I think these things are almost bound to come up, perhaps especially in translated rules. There are so many specialized terms and possible (if improbable) interactions that there are bound to be rules questions, whether of the arcane, obscure variety (like the fellow who asked where It Is A Gift could be played when Frodo is in Mordor) or the kind that designers/playtesters took the answers to for granted but which aren't necessarily apparent to the players (maybe like the example about separating Companions in a besieged Stronghold--it might have occurred in playtests/practice games, but you dealt with it in a reasonable manner and moved on without noting the implicit exception to the rules).
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Post by Corvo on Sept 9, 2004 6:13:12 GMT 1
A Shadow stronghold always provide a re-roll. This is not related to control - even if the Free People would establish themselves in Moria, I may easily imagine that a lot of bad things would be still lurking in its depths... On the other hand, a FP Stronghold controlled by the Shadow does not count against the Fellowship. Of course if a SA army is there, that will give one re-roll. First of all: Sorry for asking so many questions... ...but as SteveOwen said, I indeed need a copy of the game So, the conclusion is that regarding a Hunt Re-Roll a stronghold is referred to it's "beginning-affiliation" and not it's current control. Well. atleast that's cleared up. Thnx everyone!
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Veldrin
Lord of the Nazgûl
Posts: 1,305
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Post by Veldrin on Sept 9, 2004 6:21:53 GMT 1
Actually, the Rules say a reroll is provided by a Stronghold controlled by the Shadow player (top of page 20). I don't think it can be interpreted any other way than I did! The important word here is controlled.
So A Stronghold captured by the Shadow will provide a reroll and a Stronghold captured by the FP is safe.
[glow=green,2,300]Veldrin[/glow]
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Post by Corvo on Sept 9, 2004 7:38:46 GMT 1
For easy reference, here is part of the rules we're referring to: And upon reading it again, I think Veldrin makes a valid point. Most people, like I did, will assume that a FP-Stronghold (like Lorien) controlled by the SA player will cause a hunt re-roll. To be honest, I think it would be a good idea to stick with Veldrin's interpretation. *Corvo hides for Cybernex and SteveHope*
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Veldrin
Lord of the Nazgûl
Posts: 1,305
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Post by Veldrin on Sept 9, 2004 8:01:34 GMT 1
Cybernex, is this another problem with your master document not saying the same as and the English translation?
[glow=green,2,300]Veldrin[/glow]
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Post by TomKassel on Sept 9, 2004 9:55:26 GMT 1
There seems to be a little confusion, or at least inconsistency, betweem "natural" Free People/Shadow Strongholds (those which start the game that way) and captured strongholds.
Besides the revealing issue, there is the question of healing and moving Nazgul without an army.
As for healing. the first paragraph on page 21 says healing is possible at a friendly city or stronghold, but the next paragraph then says Free People's City/Stronghold not under enemy control. As that is a more precise statement, it looks like that should govern.
Moving Nazgul on page 13 says they can be moved by character die to a Free People's Stronghold only if it is besieged by a shadow army. It doesn't mention the case where the stronghold has been captured, so a literal (and nonsensical reading) would prohibit Nazgul movement (unless capture renders a Free People's Stronghold into a Shadow Stronghold, which in turn has other effects).
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Post by Corvo on Sept 9, 2004 10:11:54 GMT 1
Tom, those are pretty good points. Regarding healing:It would be logical that a FP-Stronghold under enemy control would prevent a fellowship from healing, IMHO. Besides, I think it is an extra incentive for the SA-player to capture stronghold (or city)... is it not? Regarding Nazgul movement:Once a FP-Stronghold has been taken it would surely seem logical that a Nazgul should be able to lead an army and defend the stronghold from being re-taken.
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Post by Corvo on Sept 9, 2004 12:39:03 GMT 1
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Post by Corvo on Sept 9, 2004 13:37:26 GMT 1
I hope no-one minds I'm triple-posting.... But the current discussion about strongholds got me thinking: What happens when the Elves manage to take a Shadow Stronghold (let's say Moria)?? Does that mean that: A) the Elves cleared the way for the fellowship thus creating a safe passage through a stronghold (in this example: Moria)?? B) Gandalf the White can enter play in a Elven-controlled SA-Stronghold?! I'm shutting up now... I'll sit down and wait for some 100% official ruling on this
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