DEW in the xpac.

[gandalfrocks]

It seems to me that with the expansion, the DEW line is forgotten about. In most of the games I play, it is Wk Lorien rush, then Saruman takes Rohan, the Dol Amroth gets murdered by the cosairs then Minas Tirith falls. I usually go DEW instead of Lorien and seems to take the same amount of dice.

[mrweasely]

I'm not sure what's bothering you. Do you want to see more play or less play in DEW.

Overall, DEW is somewhat more resistant to invasion than playing without the expansion. The temptation to Balrog sometimes helps the Free, as does the greater frequency of companion seperation. Needless to say Rangers of the North helps too.

Its still a cake-walk in 60% of games, but at least its possible for the Free to somewhat muddy the waters if they really really try.

[luckydogwilson]

I don't have the expansion, but I've seen a lot of discussion about how it "fixes" the game. While I understand that with Galadriel, Smeagol, Ents, Balrog and "Mr Huntly" (et al) there are host of additional options avaliable, I have not yet seen any refutation of the basic "DEW North" Strategy.

Apart from the card; "Rangers of the North" (1 card only I assume) , what helps against a Shadow player who continues to follow the "DEW North" attack with the witch king leading?

[kwojtasz]

Lorien is not a push over anymore. With Galadriel able to muster while in seige, the SP typically needs to accumulate more strength before being able to attack.

Also the seige tower additions can slow down the SP, since a typical DEW assault relies on reducing elites to continue a seige battle atleast once or twice while blitzing through.

So now you can probably still get 5 VP's from the DEW line as before, but you aren't easily at 7 when Lorien was a typical next quick hit. When you were left with only 3, one city and helms deep was a quick death to the FP. Not to mention the corsairs card is changed in the expansion so it is no longer a quick 2 pts strike, but now a faction instead. (which in the basic version was another quick 2 VP option due to the card cycling WK, you increased the probability of drawing it)

Lastly, with the Smeagol tiles, the FP could be less corrupt once they hit Mordor, so they won't have to go as slow inside there and if they luck into Smeagol close to outside Mordor, they can declare in Mordor mid-turn! This kills all the turn stall opportunities and can really fast track the FP.

Overall though, the DEW is still a viable strategy, as are a number of the other main strategies. However it is no longer a high probability play as it was in the basic version, where you could practically force the blitz without much regard to the FP player's actions.

[gandalfrocks]

DEW is often diregarded because the shadow player now spends most of his early musters Voicing before the ents come in, so the Shadow is not mustering the elites they need to take DEW. also, most players see the benefit of Lorien, since that lets gandy stay in the fellowship. O often don't see DeW anymore, because it is overlooked by all the new expac options that players try to fit in( e.g. geting Balrog, hunty, corsairs, more voicing,) The basic games components. One problem with DEW is if 2 of the nations get to war early, you won't be able to take it, and it can be seen coming and lets the FP know its coming from a mile away.

[magicgeek]

While I see your points, and agree with most of this thread, I think that something critical really has not been stated.

Galadriel speeds up the sprint so DEW North is not as fast as it used to be.

Also.
DEW North is massively cramped by Saruman being turned off.
Saruman used to be just too easy as well.


I my last game as FP I got the Ents on the 5th die of the game, with a Ring.


Please explain to me how you do an aggressive strategy without Wolves or Sauron?


To me.. . .
"DEW is often diregarded because the shadow player now spends most of his early musters Voicing before the ents come in"

Just means you are not playing the game quite right.
Yes, if the Free lets Saruman Voice lots, he should.
But, Yes, the Free should just kick Saruman in the bollocks on the first turn.

(if Free can get the King, get Ents with first die of second turn)

[gandalfrocks]

free can get ents and king on dice 1 of turn 2, how often do you see that happen? That just means that the free won't muster elves or be able to anyhting else for the whole first turn. I personally wouldn't get the ents at all as the free. Most of the time they don't do anything unless you have 2 cards, and a single wildmen in the forsds and a couple of regs in isen. I would rather let Saruman voice all game. he can only really attack Rohan without using excessive move dice, and then he will avoid DEW which rewards so much more.

[kwojtasz]

An active Saruman is very dangerous to the FP. Their units are in the center of the board and can strike the Shire and Grey Havens, along with Helms Deep. They can even pressure Rivendell. I really like to keep Saruman limited in his troops like Magicgeek.

Turn 1 I am looking for Aragorn if possible, dropping off a hobbit in Fangorn and Legolas in Lorien on the way. (Boromir can stick in the fellowship, since I like Legolas's ability to muster the elves to war with any die if necessary while saving the musters for mustering elves if necessary).

Albeit, you can't force the issue and go into the game knowing you want to do X. You can plan for it, but you still have to follow the flow of your cards and action dice. I think that is one of the best parts of the game, there isn't one cookie cutter path to victory. I view it more like the various black opening moves in chess. Based on yours and your opponents action dice, your desireable options change. If you just plow ahead with a preset strategy and the action dice aren't meshing with it, your game will probably go south quickly and you'll wonder how you lost playing what everyone has said or you have read is "the way to win".

For me, as the SP, I would welcome no threat of Ents any game. Since just the threat of them, can cause some pause for the SP during certain situations. I think having the Ents active also can be one piece of the puzzle toward a possible FP military victory if the opportunity presents itself.

[gandalfrocks]

I'm not saying you son't get the ents. Maybe not making them the whooe focus of the first turn. I would rather let the shadow player make the first move, and if he goes straight to Saruman, then get the ents. But if you use your whole first turn to hold Saruman in check, what happens when the shadow goes to DEW. You spent all your dice to get the king and the ents, but now there is a shadow army knocking on the door of DEW because you made it so obvious and comitted so much to getting the king to Dol Amroth, maybe even using a ring. You have Legolas in Lorien and Aragorn in Dol Amroth, with a hobbit in Fangorn, but a large Mordor Army and maybe even a small southron reinforcement army knocking on the doors of DEW. This doesn't seem like an ideal position for the free peoples.

[gandalfrocks]

I tried it out. The free rolled CCCP on the first turn, got Legolas to Lorien, hobbit to Fangorn, and Aragorn to Minas Tirith. They then used a ring to get the ents. The shadow rolled MM M/A ACA . Mustered Sauron to war, and mustered twice in Dol Guldur. Then they moved the Dol Guldur army to Narrows in the Forest, and got a 5/1/0 southron army in Vale of the Carnen. This ended the first turn. On the second turn, they put Woodland Realm under siege. The free mustered a treb, but Shadow ate it up using a strife. The southrons took Dale, and DOl Guldur, with 3/2/4, took Erebor with a great host. The FSP was at step one wiht no corruption, and the Shadow had 5 vps. The shadow player rolled very well, and didn't even have to bring in the WK .

Please tell me if I am doing something wrong.

[genghissean]

How did he get the Southrons to war so fast? He would have had to have 2m then 4 a 1 eye in box? he rolled no eyes or p or c?

[gandalfrocks]

I had forgot to get the southrons to war. Still, that would have meant that the shadow would have captured all of it on turn 3. Shadow rolled 1 palantir, but used a ring to change it. The shadow rolled amazingly well, but it still is a good start.

[magicgeek]

"Please tell me if I am doing something wrong. "
Hey, look, you asked.


"I tried it out."
No, you didn't


"Free roll CCCP. Legolas to Lorien, hobbit to Fangorn, and Aragorn to Minas Tirith."
Good boy.


"Shadow roll MM M/A ACA
Sauron to war, muster twice in Dol Guldur and move to Narrows in the Forest, {Easterlings} in Vale of the Carnen."


"They then used a ring to get the ents."
**BAD! ** They have no Saruman!
**Sauron is at WAR! (use a ring to get Galadriel)


"Second turn, Woodland Realm under siege."
"Shadow ate it up using a strife."
Fine!

"free muster a treb"
Stupid waste. Elf in Lorien please.


"The {Easterlings} took Dale"
No they didn't, they are not at war.

" and DOl Guldur, with 3/2/4, took Erebor with a great host."
Cough, no they didn't because you are not at war.


"The FSP was at step one wiht no corruption, and the Shadow had 5 vps."
The FSP was at step one with no corruption, and the Shadow had 2 vps.


"The shadow player rolled very well, and didn't even have to bring in the WK ."
And it is turn 3 and the Free are rolling 6 dice against the shadows 7.


If and when you take Dale and Erebor, things change.
Erid Luin protects Greyhavens with the dwarven force pool.
The Elves max out Rivendell and Lorien.
The King waits in Gondor.
The Ents protect Rohan and Lorien.
Even Carrock can be a problem.

And what happens when 10 HP of Lorien goes North and liberates DEW?


Getting Isengaurd to war takes a die, then getting saruman, then using the voice.
Ents stop the Voice of Saruman.
Dont stop step three when they have not spent the resources on step on or two.
All you have demonstrated so far is that you should absolutely not do what you did in your test game.
Getting the Ents blindly is stupid.


Please play Free against a real person, and get the Ents on your 3rd play.

Free split
Shadow Isengaurd
Free Move
Shadow Saruman
Free Ents


gandalfrocks You are *so* wrong.

[gandalfrocks]

There are a couple of things that you are missing.
and DOl Guldur, with 3/2/4, took Erebor with a great host."
Cough, no they didn't because you are not at war.

Yes, Mordor was at war.

Instead, after the WR falls, muster Southrons to war. Then on the third turn, you can complete ths by taking Carrock and Iron hills. Thus, you have your free army of maybe 1/4/1, which would then threaten to march on the DEW, right? The Shadow then just musters up a couple elites or regs in moria and Dol GUldur to at least force the elves to give a little more thought to marching up to DEW.

It is a 5 region march up to DEW, which is almost 1 whole turn of dice, giving the shadow enough time to muster up a couple of elites and march on a very weak Lorien, and the elves are too far away to get back to help. You then have a medium size army of Shadow facing a elven army that is shilghtly larger than them, but with armies cming to help them.

Or you coukld bring up the mordor 10 stack from Morrannon to stop the elves. If this happens, then the free could only be rolling 5 against 8 shadow, with 7 vp under shadow control .

[kwojtasz]

One of the factors I would highlight is the dice situation, which is no longer trivial. The FP will be rolling 6 dice a turn from turn 2 or 3 on. (with Aragorn and Galadriel) That is a lot of dice all game, which will make any remaining attacks more difficult because more musters will be available. The extra dice will probably produce some more army move/musters too, which keeps a FP military strike in play. I'm not too worried about 5 quick VP's for the SP if I have 6 dice with the FP already (and the SP rolling just 7 still?!). On average, 50% the dice should allow you to move the FSP. So at 3 steps a turn, within 3-4 more turns, depending on the reveals, you are declaring in Mordor. (assuming the 10 path through Moria) If the SP counter with more Eyes... that will slow them down when trying to get the next 5 VPs and is the opposite of their initial SP blitz plan, which can be counter productive. Burning extra dice in taking out the Iron Hills and Carrock are also a non-trivial cost to the SP.

The S&E two musters are also critical to remember, since it isn't a sure thing that musters will be rolled. A lot of times a turn goes by with 0 or 1 (or maybe that's just my bad luck? lol). With 2 for Sauron+WK, 2 for S&E's and 2 for Isengard+Sauraman... thats a lot of musters, with each one critical, and not a sure thing to get in the first couple turns unless rolling very well.