Event Card Timing Question

[nigel]

Maybe I've played too many CCGs? But I have a couple of questions on the timing of actions in the game:

1/ We Prove The Swifter - if I use this character event card to seperate Gandalf the Grey, who's leading the Fellowship, can I still use his guide ability to draw an event card before he leaves?
It depends on the interpretation of the timing of the events - does the play of the event trigger Gandalf's Guide ability, or is the ability checked after the resolution of the event card - in which case he's not the guide anymore

2/ Gollum's 'ability' to keep the Fellowship hidden from some of the hunt tiles (non-eye, non-special) - what happens if a 1/reveal tile is drawn (say) and the last companion/guide is killed by the '1' so Gollum becomes the Fellowship guide - does the reveal icon on the hunt tile reveal the Fellowship or not?
Again it's a timing issue - is the status of the Fellowship (ie the current guide) checked on the draw of the tile, in which case the reveal icon will reveal the fellowship, or when the reveal is processed, in which case Gollum is the guiding the Fellowship and the reveal icon will be ignored

See what I mean, or am I missing something obvious?

Thanks

Nigel

[eXistenZ]

I can understand you, maybe because I am a MTG player

The answer to your #1 question I think is that you do draw the card, because I feel the gandalf's ability reads "immediately" and so is triggered before he actually leaves the company.
The question #2 is more difficult... I think: you draw the tile with the hunt damage and reveal icon - you chose to sacrifice the company's guide to prevent the corruption damage and you reveal the company - thereafter Gollum becomes the company's guide.
At the least this is my interpretation of an experienced MTG player

[nigel]

eXistenZ said:

I can understand you, maybe because I am a MTG player

The answer to your #1 question I think is that you do draw the card, because I feel the gandalf's ability reads "immediately" and so is triggered before he actually leaves the company.
The question #2 is more difficult... I think: you draw the tile with the hunt damage and reveal icon - you chose to sacrifice the company's guide to prevent the corruption damage and you reveal the company - thereafter Gollum becomes the company's guide.
At the least this is my interpretation of an experienced MTG player

Right, but that's interpreting the rules using MtG timing rules - where actions are put on a 'stack' and then the stack is resolved LIFO (Last in, First Out). There's no reason to suppose WoTR will use the same timing mechanic, in fact no mention is made in the rules at all that I can see

You could argue that each 'thing' happens - no stacking at all. In which case Gandalf's ability wouldn't work - as you check the guide status after the event card has been played and resolved. No so sure about the Gollum question though ... ugh, timing makes my head hurt

Nigel

[eXistenZ]

you're right... but the word "immediately" in the text let me feel that the card has to be drawn. about gollum, the fact that the damage and reveal icons are on the tile makes me think they have to be "resolved" at the same time
however the "stack" and the LIFO order seem to be the best way to handle multiple actions... even if our mind may be "corrupted" by MTG rules

[cheup]

nigel said:

2/ Gollum's 'ability' to keep the Fellowship hidden from some of the hunt tiles (non-eye, non-special) - what happens if a 1/reveal tile is drawn (say) and the last companion/guide is killed by the '1' so Gollum becomes the Fellowship guide - does the reveal icon on the hunt tile reveal the Fellowship or not?
Again it's a timing issue - is the status of the Fellowship (ie the current guide) checked on the draw of the tile, in which case the reveal icon will reveal the fellowship, or when the reveal is processed, in which case Gollum is the guiding the Fellowship and the reveal icon will be ignored

From the book- and also from the boardgame-point-of-view, I think, this should not be possible.
The Fellowship is revealed and the last Companion is killed almost at the same time and after that Gollum joins the Fellowship.

[nigel]

cheup said:

From the book- and also from the boardgame-point-of-view, I think, this should not be possible.
The Fellowship is revealed and the last Companion is killed almost at the same time and after that Gollum joins the Fellowship.

This isn't consistent with the ruling that was posted by Veldrin on the Merry/Pippin thread:

[glow=red,2,300]Q[/glow] If Merry/Pippin are guides outside Mordor can one or both separate to reduce damage? YES. As soon as one separates, the other takes the guide position and can do the same to reduce further damage. Of course they will never be guides if any other FSP members remain, so taking them as a casualty is not a viable option.

[glow=red,2,300]A[/glow] Correct.

So this indicates that the guide changes mid-way through resolving a tile so it would indicate that if a damage/reveal tile (with no stop symbol) was pulled in mordor and the last guide killed to reduce the corruption, gollum being the new guide could then use his ability to cancel the reveal icon.

Nigel

[Veldrin]

Roberto stated on Consimworld along with the answer you quoted that this only works with Merry and Pippin. Gollum needs to be the Guide when the tile is drawn to ignore the Reveal icon on those tiles.

I have submitted this as a question needing an official answer for the FAQ so stay tuned adn an official answer will soon come.

[glow=green,2,300]Veldrin[/glow]

[nigel]

Thanks!

It's fairly obscure - only had it happen in one game (so far).

What about the first question - Gandalf leaving the fellowship by play of a character event card while guiding, do you get the extra card or not?

Nigel

[Veldrin]

On the first question I think the answer is defenetly yes since Gandalf is the Guide when you use tha Palantir die to play the card, the Fp player should be allowed to use Gandalf's guide ability.

[glow=green,2,300]Veldrin[/glow]

[Torque]

I have a follow on question along similar lines, last night I played a game where Gandalf the White was part of a battle against several Nazgul. He invoked his special ability to cancel all Nazgul re-rolls by forfeiting his own, this occurs before combat begins according to Gandalf's card. The SP player then decided to play 'Words of Power' on Gandalf which states ignore a companions leadership and special abilities. Would Gandalf's special abilities be nullified?

Last night I ruled that Gandalf's special ability had already been completed and that the card could only effect other companions at the battle but this morning I'm not so sure.

[cheup]

cheup said:

From the book- and also from the boardgame-point-of-view, I think, this should not be possible.
The Fellowship is revealed and the last Companion is killed almost at the same time and after that Gollum joins the Fellowship.

Yeah!!!
I was right!!!

[eXistenZ]

It depends on which was the attacker and which the defender... defender's combat cards resolve earlier (see Rules), so if Galdalf's the defender his ability resolves at first, Nazgul's re-rolls are cancelled and SP combat card makes nothing; if the SP is the defender, Gandalf's ability is nullified and FP combat card makes nothing.
My opinion however...

[Torque]

The Gandalf the White card states
'If Gandalf the White is in a battle, before the battle begins you can declare that you are forfeiting his leadership to negate the leadership from all Nazgul, in this battle'
I took this to mean Gandalf's ability occurs prior to card play and that you could as the FP still use a combat card if you so wished. This would mean that the SA players combat card always follows Gandalfs ability, at least the way I'm interpreting the rules.

[Veldrin]

Gandalf's ability is used prior to the battlle but the Shadow's Combat card can still affect (and nullify in the case of "Words of Power") Gandalf's ability.

[glow=green,2,300]Veldrin[/glow]

[Torque]

Thanks for the clarification on the Gandalf situation, could have made quite a difference to our game, I'll have to remember it for next time.