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Post by Homba on Aug 12, 2008 6:59:29 GMT 1
Three questions I couldn't answer from the faq.
First one is on DM of Dunharrow: Is it true that if no enemy army is present in the Gondor region where Strider/Aragorn appears, the FPP nonetheless can recruit up to 3 Gondor regulars there?
I think the above is true, but I can see how some might say it is an "if/then" statement, thus the recruiting of up to three is only possible if hostile army was first driven back.
Not sure why the word "Then" was used in the last sentence of the ability, because it introduces the "if/then" ambiguity. Should have just omitted the "Then" or substituted "Finally".
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Second: The rules (p16) indicate that a FP nation can be activated when an eligible companion "enters" one of its cities or strongholds.
Does the companion have to stop there to activate the nation? Or can he pass on through without stopping and still activate the nation?
The word "enters" is ambiguous because it's unclear whether the companion has to stop - in fact the most literal reading indicates that just passing through would be sufficient to activate the nation. The city/strH (region) was "entered" and passed through.
I think if stopping was required, the rules would say that, as they often specify when a companion has to stop somewhere (entering an enemy stronghold region).
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Third: If a Shadow stronghold is besieged by the FP, does a companion have to stop there, or can they pass through? It would make sense to me that they could pass on through, since the bad guys would be confined under siege in the stronghold.
Thanks
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Post by Krieghund on Aug 12, 2008 12:21:56 GMT 1
Welcome, Homba! Is it true that if no enemy army is present in the Gondor region where Strider/Aragorn appears, the FPP nonetheless can recruit up to 3 Gondor regulars there? I think the above is true, but I can see how some might say it is an "if/then" statement, thus the recruiting of up to three is only possible if hostile army was first driven back. Not sure why the word "Then" was used in the last sentence of the ability, because it introduces the "if/then" ambiguity. Should have just omitted the "Then" or substituted "Finally". You may recruit the units even if no Shadow Army is attacked. The rules (p16) indicate that a FP nation can be activated when an eligible companion "enters" one of its cities or strongholds. Does the companion have to stop there to activate the nation? Or can he pass on through without stopping and still activate the nation? The word "enters" is ambiguous because it's unclear whether the companion has to stop - in fact the most literal reading indicates that just passing through would be sufficient to activate the nation. The city/strH (region) was "entered" and passed through. I think if stopping was required, the rules would say that, as they often specify when a companion has to stop somewhere (entering an enemy stronghold region). A Companion must end his movement in a City or Stronghold in order to Activate a Nation. Think of it as only entering the City or Stronghold itself if the Companion stops in the Region, but just passing by it on the road if he keeps moving through. If a Shadow stronghold is besieged by the FP, does a companion have to stop there, or can they pass through? It would make sense to me that they could pass on through, since the bad guys would be confined under siege in the stronghold. Yes. Even when besieged, a Shadow Stronghold is a dangerous place. |
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Post by Homba on Aug 13, 2008 5:36:10 GMT 1
Hey KH, thanks.
On the "enters" the city/StrH question, I was more interested in a rule that I missed, or a FAQ that I missed (if there is such), that clears up the ambiguity of "enters."
We can "think of it" in any number of reasonable ways, but we have to follow the written rule in the end. The book says "enters," which term does not on its face forbid leaving straight away after a rousing speech and continuing the companion's movement out to his maximum allowance.
If instead of "enters" the designers would have said "stop in," there would be zero debate, since "stop in" does in fact forbid continuing on.
Unless there is a rule or FAQ (or designer decision) that clarifies this, I believe that many people playing the game will interpret "enters" as moving into the region containing the city or stronghold, and continuing on is not forbidden. And I believe that's a more correct interpretation of the word "enters" without any other guidance. Especially when large points are made in other rule sections about when people have to "Stop" in stronghold regions, etc.
Can you show me what I'm missing in the rules?
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In the third question, again you provide a reasonable rationalization of your interpretation, but you don't provide a rule or FAQ.
I too can form a reasonable rationalization. A companion can glide effortlessly through a region containing a nazgul-led massive army. A shadow stronghold, under siege, with the dangerous folks bottled up inside the fortress (pretty much the definition of a siege, you'd agree), shouldn't be any more difficult to navigate for a companion than a non-fortress region swarming with nazgul and 10 army units.
Without digging into the FAQ again, I don't believe my question has been asked - but I ask it because there are specific questions clarifying strongholds under siege as treated differently than when not under siege.
I recognize that the baseline rule is that a companion must stop when entering a shadow stronghold, period. But since siege/non siege issues are addressed in the FAQ, I thought I'd ask since my rationalization IS justifiable. It would be a tiny advantage to the FP player and would probably almost never come up.
Thanks,
H
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Post by Krieghund on Aug 13, 2008 15:02:49 GMT 1
From the FAQ:
On the third question, on page 13 the rules state that a Companion must stop moving "upon entering a Region containing a Shadow Stronghold", and this isn't qualified any further in either the rules or the FAQ. Since the very next statement in the rules talks about the effects of a siege on a friendly Stronghold on Companion movement, we can only assume that the absence of a mention of the effects of a siege on a Shadow Stronghold would indicate that it would have no effect on it.
As you said, "we have to follow the written rule in the end", and there is nothing in the rules or FAQ to indicate, either directly or indirectly, that a Free Peoples siege on a Shadow Stronghold removes the requirement that a Companion must stop there when moving. In my opinion, anything contrary to this answer would require a new FAQ entry in order to be supportable.
It's my understanding that this is the correct answer, but perhaps Veldrin will answer differently. If there are specific FAQ entries that you believe may support the opposite answer, could you please cite them?
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Post by Homba on Aug 13, 2008 23:58:47 GMT 1
Thank you for pointing that out. My fault for missing it in the FAQ. Perhaps it should be in the Errata section, rather than the explanatory FAQ section, since the rule as written in the book is perhaps more likely to be interpreted in the opposite manner.
On the last question I am more willing to accept your original justification after thinking about it more: even if under siege, Moria would have to be navigated, wandering spiders avoided around Dol G, Shelob avoided in Minas Morgul, the gates penetrated at the Black Gate, etc, as you said, even though under siege still dangerous and difficult regions to pass through. Gundabad, Umbar and Barad-Dûr don't take this treatment as easily, but would be the least likely places for it to be an issue in a game. If I have time, I might search the FAQ for the implications I believe are there and make a post discussing it, but until then I am confortable with following the basic command in the rules.
Thanks for your help,
H
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Post by magicgeek on Aug 23, 2008 8:08:43 GMT 1
Regarding the third question, this is cut from the Actual Rules 3rd question "Companions must stop when entering Shadow Strongholds." & "A Shadow Stronghold means a Stronghold controlled by Shadow at the start of the game. Companions can move into a Shadow Stronghold. Companions can move out of a Shadow Stronghold. Companions cannot move into and out of a Shadow Stronghold in a single action." I reckon that has got to be about as specific as possible.  2nd Question "A Free nation becomes active when a companion capable of activating enters a city or stronghold of that nation." Looks like you found a tiny hole. I play the same as KH. I think it is the "right" way, but I cant prove it, yet. 1st question "if no enemy army is present in the Gondor region where Strider/Aragorn appears, the FPP nonetheless can recruit up to 3 Gondor regulars there?" Well, . . yeah. This is a poorly written card. Replacing "then" with "finally" would help. But, It is the same with Faramir's Rangers. (and Rangers of the North) "Faramir’s Rangers can muster the figures without attacking anything." Fair question, I should include it in the Actual Rules, coz it aint in anything else. veldrin.proboards22.com/index.cgi?board=Rules&action=display&thread=621 |
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Post by Krieghund on Aug 23, 2008 12:52:55 GMT 1
2nd Question "A Free nation becomes active when a companion capable of activating enters a city or stronghold of that nation." Looks like you found a tiny hole. I play the same as KH. I think it is the "right" way, but I cant prove it, yet. What about the FAQ entry? I think that proves it. |
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Post by magicgeek on Aug 24, 2008 7:54:56 GMT 1
"Q ... can Gandalf activate the North and the Dwarves in one move by going from the Woodland Realm to Dale to Erebor?
A No, the Character must stop in the City/Stronghold to activate it."
OK. Fair enuff. Good to know it is there.
"A Free nation becomes active when a companion capable of activating <stops in> a city or stronghold of that nation."
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