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Post by mrweasely on Sept 13, 2006 3:46:23 GMT 1
Then Boromir goes to Minas Tirith every game for House of the Stewards. Probably Aragorn too. One muster would always go to Gondor early. That was a standard opening in our group, and its fairly strong, as long as SA always attacks Minas Tirith.
The order for the shadow might become: (1) Hit Lorien to kill the die. (2) Try to at least besiege Minas Tirith to keep Boromir out.
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Post by magicgeek on Sept 13, 2006 9:19:46 GMT 1
The fact you wish to compare my ravings to your leader's is scarey in itself. I made no secret I channeled the dark lord to write Dew North. Your leader's speeches don't get the same airplay outside of your fishbowl. I think I know what you are typing about, but wanting to watch 'a state of the union' is incomprehensible to me. As is wanting to talk to people about it, even if they are on conference. I write as I wish, and I write very differently to all of you. This small part of the virtual world is my current toy, read it if you wish, but I will not write as anyone else decides. Na foockin' way am I putting rules on myself about when and what I rewrite. If you want to have conversations on a bus, go ahead. Me and my reply may have got off the bus 6 months ago. X X X I played with a basic set last week. We both know the base game is broken so we played with the expansion, just without the actual pieces. None of the pieces in the expansion are needed. None of the cards are particularly needed either, but for completeness sake I wrote them out and figured out a completely workable solution. Since then I have been reluctant to write up how to bodge the expansion. I do not know if Veldrin would allow it on his site. Writing on the official website is just a bit too close to being the official mouthpiece. Funny how the Witch King is still always someone's slave. XXX XXX Tolkiens world view, ideology and religion inherently stuff up any attempt at making this game like the books. Q) If Minas T is so important, why don't you just win when you take it? A) Because the good guys are never allowed to lose. If Sauron had done DEW North in the books, the equivalent of Aragorn would have appeared and beaten back the hordes. There is just no way that Tolkien would have allowed the bad guys to win, some ridiculous chain of events will always occur. Minas T is just another human city, in just another human country. If it falls or not really is not very important, except to people that want the game to mirror exactly what happened in the books, in which case why bother since the Free have already won, and always will. Also, the fact that everyone always attacks Minas T at the start is very telling. That bit is exactly like the books. Unlike Sauron, we get to play it again and again. The ridiculous cards just don't work right once Sauron has read them. 'Hey, how come you only moved 1 guy into Pelagir?' 'Why did you leave 1 guy in the fords?' 'If you hadn't played swarm of bats. . . ' That is why Sauron needs 10 VP to win. In the Books and Movies he was on the same terms as the Free. Free needed 4 VP to win, like the game. Shadow needed 4 VP to win, like the books. XXX 3 more games Magic Geek conquers on turn 8 with Shadow, FSP got 1 turn in Mordor. Power Rangers attacked Sauron, pushing him to war so Galadriel could be summoned. Magic Geek gets crushed on turn 8 with Free, FSP outside mordor. I got squashed, 1 Will for the game! 1 palantir before turn 7 makes fellowship Gandalf sad. Magic Geek scores a Free Military Victory ! First turn Gandalf + Ents. Second turn Dwarf Book + King. Muster out Dwarves. Clear DEW. Gandalf + Gimli + 14 HP charge Dol Guldur. 5 points of sudden reinforcements appear, and a second army gives 'Help unlooked for', retreating the Dwarves and Elves south. Gandalf charges Morranon, conquers and moves into Gorgoroth. Barad Dur gets lots of reinforcements. Gondor declares war, King goes through a day and a night across a conquered rohan, Ents clear rohan and Orthanc, King conquers Orthanc, Gandalf retreats and holds out in Moranon. Woo Hoo ! Fellowship moved 1 space on turn 5, got revealed and never even hid for the rest of the game. Minas T and Dol Amroth were unchallenged in all 3 games. Funny that everywhere else people only get ring victories. I think the new reality takes a little readjusting. Next game. . . Magic Geek wins a Free Ring Dunk, turn 11. FSP on 11 Corruption. Shadow on 10 points. Ents turn 1. Threatening the Free Military forces so much inefficiency on the shadow. Mr Hunty is good, even if it is only because you can get his die, and attack with him, before Sauron is at war. Drawing cards can be just not as important as stopping Galadriel, and not needing the Balrog. Especially if you are drawing character cards because it is hard to corrupt out the FSP now. The Dunlending army is not strong enough to take out Grey / Shire. It is strong enough to take out Rivendell. X X X You want me to be REALISTIC about interacting with a random stranger that pretends to be 'Ratbert', while typing in a virtual backwater about a simulation of a fictional war, in an imaginary world, is that right?
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Post by mrweasely on Sept 14, 2006 1:41:13 GMT 1
Heh, I'd actually forgotten where I lifted that guy from. It took me a while to realize you were talking to me with that. As for the rest...do as seems best, of course. I've spent more than enough time trying to persuade you ... if you're not persuaded, you're not persuaded. I'll still read your stuff in any format, so go nuts. Hey, I notice your Legolas is no longer touring the West, but rather going to Lorien. I think that's a good change. Its too bad that there isn't another Level 2 companion, because there really needs to be one in each of Lorien, DEW, the West, and Gondor. These days though my best practice is another approach: keep the companions near Frodo. Spin them off only when you KNOW they'll see heavy combat. Don't seriously strive for FPMV.
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Post by magicgeek on Oct 2, 2006 1:44:57 GMT 1
Q> How many spaces are there on the board?
You could take out the map and start counting, but take a guess.
My guess was about 50, with about a quarter of them being irrelevant. Khand or Forlindon are not exactly needed. How about Nth Erid Luin?
A> There are 103 places on the board.
17 are places Red strongholds / city / settlements. 22 are places Blue strongholds / city / settlements. 64 are neither.
That number is actually a bit low, there is also inside and outside of the 16 Strongholds, but anyhoo.
Technically the 'neither' areas are sometimes officially part of a country. Apart from the Old Forest Rd and Estenmet, mostly this is irrelevent.
That is the critical and odd part about the map. How often do you see a War Game where over 60% of the map is neutral?
The only examples I can think of are "space" wargames, but they have some very basic problems that this just doesn't. Drawing a line and saying two things are adjacent just isn't the same as having two provinces that are actually adjacent. 'Space' wargames always suffer from the put all your pieces together and crush problem.
The 10 unit maximum is just plain silly in a 'space' wargame. 10 units max seems pretty reasonable on a provincial map.
'Space' wargames suffer pretty badly from a complete lack of terrain, terrain that blocks movement that is. Gosh, we are fighting in terrain X so all Y get plus Z, really isn't that important, or interesting really.
Being forced by the map to go in a specific direction to get to your choice of opponents is just not something that happens in space. For instance, Sth Dunland can realistically attack Dol Amroth + Pelagir, Grey Havens + Shire, Bree + Shire, Rivendell, Lorien or Rohan. And then they can move on if successful.
That range of options just doesn't happen in normal wargames, especially since Sth Dunland is a really minor source of troops. Maybe Japan has that sort of choice in a standard WW2 wargame, but Japan is a major player, and the Sea is wide and open.
Mostly this is caused by the map. The province based system is so the way to go. If it was hex based, moving from Ithilian to Os Giliath takes 10 times as long, for the same basic effect. Hex based systems may be more accurate, they are also way less fun and more time consuming. In effect this war game has stolen the feel of a miniatures game without paying the effort.
A skirmish miniatures wargame, like Necromunda, takes way long and involves winning by abusing the map and dice. But the miniatures look lovely.
A War level miniatures wargame, like Fantasy battle or Ancients, converts the troops into Stands and then pushes the stands together. In effect, this type of game pushes the pieces together to solve the time eating effect of moving hundreds of figures. War of the ring does exactly the same thing by combining the map into Areas.
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Post by magicgeek on Oct 13, 2006 0:05:58 GMT 1
Played against someone with 5ish games experience. Solid gamer tho.
He has read some of my drivel, so he wanted basic game with him playing Shadow.
So we did, and the game smiled at me.
First turn King with a separate (no shadow minion) Third turn Gandalf, and the King advanced to Os-G and started a fighting withdrawl all the way to Dol Amroth, and eventually to Pelagir. Eriador, Woodland, Erebor and Dale got reinforced, and weren't threatened. Legolas in Lorien got smacked around for the whole game. Gandalf whacked Orthanc a bit. Rohan formed up in the fords. A healthy FSP got to Mordor, and started getting pounded. Bormoir Died at Minas T, just as the cheeky Rivendell Elves ran into Moria. All the bad stuff was in the pool, only 2 of the 8 FSP helpers had turned up, so the King got uppity. Shelob turning up and eating the game just didn't seem fair. Cirdans ships appeared in Pelagir, an the King went to Os G. Reinforcements started popping up in Mordor. The King Charged! Straight at Minas Morgul. Nazgul Zoomed into Minas Morgul. The King killed the 2 orcs in Gorgoroth. Defeated the relief strike from Minas Morgul. And conquered Barad Dur for the Win.
Free People Military Victory for Magic Geek! (turn 10? Fsp 2 moves to win, 8 corruption, Shadow on 2 VP) Twice I got daylight against Deadly Strife. The cards and the dice all happily played snap.
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Post by mrweasely on Oct 13, 2006 4:39:49 GMT 1
I guess he won't be playing this game again.
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Post by magicgeek on Oct 14, 2006 2:17:37 GMT 1
Actually we might be playing in 11 days.
Now I understand that mordor is a special place, and only the Mouth truely knows where it is, BUT. . .
I look at the board.
Mt Doom Is In Mordor, that is very hard to argue. The track to Mt Doom is in Gorgoroth, that too is screamingly obvious. So, the Fellowship is on the Mordor track, the Track is in Gorgoroth.
The King fights some orcs in Gorgoroth. Can he play a Blue Tile for +1?
The natural answer is YES! I get the feeling the 'Official' answer is NO!
In the books, they all charge toward Hell to make a hole for the hobbits. Funny how actually clearing Mordor is less effective than standing outside of it.
This is exactly like what 'the last battle' is meant to be all about. Fighting orcs in the middle of Mordor while trying to sneak the ring through is precisely correct. It just is. Unfortunately the thematic elements of it get stripped off because in any other area the nazgul and orcs would be pushed off or killed, and the stronghold conquered so rerolls would be stopped and the FSP would have an easier time of it. But, because the track is abstracted and lengthened past the one province that is gorgoroth the whole sequence just doesn't work.
My complaint about 'We are written in Crayon' still stands. The card cannot be changed to include moving people on the board. Explaining to someone that you can do stuff that isn't on the card because it is written somewhere that I cant actually show them means I (cannot / will not) use the card that way.
Also, in the computer version, can you change your card if the other guy doesn't play one? (I do this sometimes in real life)
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SevenSpirits
Nazgûl
PlayTester
Sauron meant no harm. He only wanted to draw the extra cards...
Posts: 283
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Post by SevenSpirits on Oct 14, 2006 20:56:45 GMT 1
Also, in the computer version, can you change your card if the other guy doesn't play one? (I do this sometimes in real life) What do you mean? Cardplay isn't simultaneous. The attacker chooses whether to play a card, and if so picks it. Then the defender does the same. I don't think there is any possibility to change your choice.
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Post by magicgeek on Oct 15, 2006 3:40:14 GMT 1
um. . . no. I get the feeling this may come as a shock to some of the very learned playtesters. 1) Attacker declares they are playing a card. 2) Defender declares they are playing a card. 3) Both sides pick cards. 4) Reveal Magic Geek checks rulebook. Page 13, last heading 'Combat Cards' First the attacker must declare. . . . , after. ., the Defender may... {Then} 'If both players chose to play Combat Cards, the cards are then chosen secretly and simulataneously revealed' It is a heavily biased rule toward Shadow. What am I saying?! It is in the base rules, so OF COURSE it is heavily biased toward shadow. Back then noone knew how to play, so shadow needed all the help it could get. The Witch King just LOVES this rule. Knowing they are not playing Daylight against your Deadly strife can be game winning. Knowing Advantageous Position is not happening helps when playing cards that boost the combat roll. If they are playing a card, switch to some crap like 'relentless assault', sacrifice 0 figures, draw the STRATEGY card, and play Deadly strife on the second round, or second attack. The real kicker was not wasting Swarm of bats if the Free are not playing Scouts in Dale. Means the Bats can turn up and nail any silliness with Lorien fighting field battles, scouting and conquering Moria. Wonder why I won so much back then The expansion is SO ridiculously Pro-Free, initially anyway. But, as I have said elsewhere, I do not like Siege engines. I am no longer sure they help the Free. Building siege engines everywhere means FPMV just wont happen, because Siege engines are purely defensive and eat the troops that want to charge Moria / Mordor. Threatening a FPMV confuses and really hampers the shadow. Siege engines just dont. Siege engines in Lorien or Minas T eat lots of dice on both sides. The shadow is still going to win eventually, and proportionally the shadow has more dice. The shadow still gets to choose when to attack, and reinforce. In an extended mega siege, downgrading to continue is a dumb call, often the hit points are more valuable. Of course attacking somewhere else is probably just better anyway. Siege engines just dont work very well in Erebor, WR, or any other stronghold with less than about 5 HP. If all that seems a bit goof ball, well consider this. Case 1) Gondor builds 4 Siege engine, Mordor Alpha goes DEW North. Gondor stays at peace. Mordor Beta goes to Rohan. Case 2) Gondor goes to War and builds 2 elites in M-T. Mordor Alpha may still go DEW North. Mordor Beta sits still and hopes the King doesn't invade. I seem to win just as often with the Free Military as the ring dunk, but maybe that is just a hangover from always playing shadow. The ring dunk is the obvious and simple victory condition. Personally , winning the hard way is much more fun.
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Post by magicgeek on Oct 16, 2006 2:01:25 GMT 1
Does anyone else think it is funny I can find holes in games I have not played? Turn 1 King off a separate has got to be the best start possible. Actually, there is a better one. (I think, need to check) Palantir = Separate Char = Move People Palantir = Fe! FI! Fo! (Fum) North to War! Wow = King Me! The way to win FPMV is to not give away rings. The King and/or Gandalf will be involved. A cheap shot is often required to snatch the first Stonghold. A solid plan is required to conquer the second, probably starting at the end of the previous turn. Orthanc, or Moria are the place to start. Massive DEW armies can go for Mt Gundabad or Dol Guldor. Bree just doesn't seem to work as a seed place. The way the Shadow stops FPMV is to use reinforcement cards to place units inside. (there are at least 4 that can be ALWAYS used). Moving Nazgul to the defence can just kill off the attackers. The best way to stop FPMV is to conquer the place abandoned by the attackers, and win on the same turn.
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Post by mrweasely on Oct 20, 2006 8:05:44 GMT 1
But, as I have said elsewhere, I do not like Siege engines. I am no longer sure they help the Free. Building siege engines everywhere means FPMV just wont happen, because Siege engines are purely defensive and eat the troops that want to charge Moria / Mordor. Threatening a FPMV confuses and really hampers the shadow. Siege engines just dont. Siege engines in Lorien or Minas T eat lots of dice on both sides. The shadow is still going to win eventually, and proportionally the shadow has more dice. The shadow still gets to choose when to attack, and reinforce. In an extended mega siege, downgrading to continue is a dumb call, often the hit points are more valuable. Of course attacking somewhere else is probably just better anyway. Siege engines just dont work very well in Erebor, WR, or any other stronghold with less than about 5 HP. Pre-expansion, Sauron casulties from a siege went up with the square of the defense strength. Now that Siege is added, casualties go up with the cube of the defense strength. That means, as you say, that lightly defended strongholds get weaker, and heavily defended strongholds are even more of a pain. So siege rules ironically help a fast, fluid, weakness-seeking shadow attack strategy, and badly hurt a Shadow player that has to go down the throat of a dug-in Free defense. If three sieges are fought against, say, [1,1,1], then the Free can pretty much concede. The siege rules are bass ackward. If the free has a compotent army, the game should tempt him to fight in the field. If he's totally outmatched, well, maybe he should be tempted to dig into the giant fortress on yonder hill...In fact, the game encourages the opposite: Dig into Minas Tirith with Boromir, and hope they come a'callin. Scouts [2,1,1] Erebor over to Dale, then try to cobble together a 5-unit defense for Woodland Realm.
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Post by magicgeek on Oct 22, 2006 2:20:26 GMT 1
Magic Geek loses with Free, 1 die short of Mt Doom on turn 10. Erebor fell 3 times (Gimli, then Elves+North, then Carrock) . Finally DEW was quiet, then Gondor disappeared. Boromir + hobbit lost their engines and life in M-T & Corsairs (!) took Dol Amroth, Edoras for win.
Was not going to lose any other points. FSP on 9. Everything was not quite special enough. Saruman gained 2 wolves on the third shadow die, and did not touch a piece for the rest of the game. Go turn 1 Ents. Gandalf never came back, Lorien had 9 HP, Legolas, Galadriel, 2xEngine, and a full shadow army on garrsion duty. Mordor Beta attacked Os-G, which scouted and ran into Minas Morgul (and could scout away again into Barad- Dur or Morannon). Last 2 turns involved lots of thought, thinking about North into Angmar ( + Pelagir into Far Harad), or North into empty Mt Gundabad (and liberate DEW!). But I went for the win and pulled my 5th eye for the game. . .
King never fought, never drew an Ent card. Didn't pull the right tile to win. Did not actually win a single battle anywhere, well, OK, I made the WK retreat once when I didn't sudden strike him to death, but was attacked back the next die with reinforcements. Complete failure to do anything special or lucky. Even got cruel weathered after getting into MInas T.
Interesting to realise the fastest way into DEW from the west is thru Mt Gundabad, not over the Mountains. Good to see the areas north of Carrock get a work out. I did fight in the field at Woodland realm, and sortied to not kill the WK.
Just maybe the corsairs are actually playable. Wormholing back to Umbar was receiving thought.
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Post by magicgeek on Oct 28, 2006 9:51:43 GMT 1
Magic Geek sprints and wins as Free! Turn 7, shadow could get to 9VP. FSP ends on 11 corruption, but the last move in Mordor was safe, drew a 3 to make it. Galadriel took 2 combat rounds, Rivendell took 2 rounds, WR took 1. Only Elves died. Gandalf, Legolas, 2 hobbits and 2xSmeagols died. No Ents, Corsairs, Hillmen, catapaults or white Gandalf. Saruman did not move a piece. Gondor did not go to war, which is odd because Boromir and the King wandered out to Ithilian and were doing the LAST BATTLE! Who they were fighting is unclear Smeagol declaring and charging across Mordor is strong. Last Battle actually won the game !
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Post by magicgeek on Oct 30, 2006 4:01:58 GMT 1
Magic Geek wins with Shadow. turn 10 FSP got 1 turn in Mordor. No fighting till turn 6. Well played both sides.
Then the Big one. Magic Geeks Free just couldn't quite win a FPMV, for 4 turns! Eventually Free lost to corruption, turn17 Shadow on 11VP, almost 13. Free on 4VP. All 3 victory conditions in one turn!
Every Shadow VP was threatened after Orthnac Fell. I am talkin' WK beating back the Dwarves, North + Hobbit to stop Angmar falling. The first Gondor expeditionary force went through Mordor and got Aragorn killed defending Morranon against the last lucky Shadow die. The second took Minas Morgul, and then Boromir made it home. The third time Gandalf took charge into West Harandor, trying for Umbar or Far Harad. Reversed into Oz-G and went North to Dol Guldor. Gandalf could have tried for the win, but got a siege engine in Grey Havens instead with the last die. Grey Havens held, The shadow ran out of both decks, and won the next turn because Gandalf could not liberate Woodland Realm, would have been 1 die short.
FSP get to Mordor, first step draw 1 Eye, and Galadreil eats it, Draw a Second EYE, Mithril coat it, DRAW A THRID EYE ! OW, take 5 damage, hide, move second step into SHELOB & DEATH! Take that Bell Curve!
Rules Question. Arragorn was holed up in Morranon for the win. Big Shadow army arrives outside Morranon. Arragorn uses Eagles Arrive, making the Nazgul run away to a 'Sauron Stronghold', do they go away? Do they stay in the ex-Shadow stonghold aragorn controls? If arragorn was on the outside, and the nazgul are on the inside, do they go away? What if the stonghold is Orthanc or Umbar, do they only leave then?
We played they go somewhere else. seemed reasonable. The words seem very wrong. Then re rolled good on his one attack and the game went on. D'oh.
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Post by magicgeek on Nov 3, 2006 2:45:49 GMT 1
Magic loses badly as Free, turn 9
First natural Will turn 8, in mordor. Safe, slightly pedestrian Shadow play crushed a pathetic resistence. Galadriel arrived, and died instantly. Ents tried and failed turn 8. Saruman ran riot, mustered lots and conquered Lorien, Shire, Grey Havens + Helms Deep. WR + Dale were nabbed by the East, South took Pelagir. The plucky North liberated Dale. Yay, it was that sort of game.
Get the Ents on turn 1, move 3, dont pass, do it now. Otherwise a good shadow with lots of Muster dice will win.
On turn 4 I mirrored up a Will and got the King. He then played 'Challenge of the King' purely to try to get Smeagol. He pulled a Smeagol, and the rules broke.
Challenge says put the non Eye tiles back in the Hunt pool. So Smeagol gets put back in, which means he does not appear. Except the Smeagol rules says he appears when pulled. So, Does Smeagol appear AND the tile go back in? Does smeagol not arrive and the tile go back?
All Rules questions always involve the cards. The latest sillyness I have realised is that the Ents are currently OK with wandering up to Moria, beating the snot out of a Troll (fine), 2 orcs (fine) and killing the BALROG ! So a combustible tree spirit is going to go down a very deep hole and kill the Enormous Fire & Smoke Monster. . . Yeah right.
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