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Post by magicgeek on Jun 25, 2006 16:05:41 GMT 1
Battles of the Third Age is about the elves.
Everything in it helps the elves, hurts their neighbours, strenghtens their pets, or weighs down their greatest enemies.
The old bad guy good stuff just got nailed. The new bad guy stuff just sucks.
for example. . .
The Corsairs used to be 'Attack Dol Amroth'. Now you need a muster die and some spare army moves, and then you surprise attack. And the Corsairs can now attack Grey Havens, just.
The Ents used to be slightly fluffy tricks that could sometimes save Rohan. Now they shut down the strongest muster factory in the game. They can wipe out the attackers of Lorien, and more. And they can still save Rohan.
The Hillmen are a rare flaw in this lovely concise expansion. They just dont work rite. The first 4 Hillmen cost 1 muster, they physically expand the limited Isengaurd muster pool and they can recruit in Rohan. But, why are the only survivours always the cannon fodder? Why are they the garrison troop of choice? Hillmen combat cards suck and Rage of the Dunlendings got downgraded. Onslaught and Relentless assault are words for Napoleons Gaurds, not rabble. Lorien is far less scared of Hillmen than wolfriders.
Six extra dice worth of troops that can be built in any stronghold obviously helps the nations that have lots of strongholds and few troops. Siege Engines are a gift for the Elves.
Sure the bad guys can build them too, but even then the good guys can still sacrifice for advantage. The worst they will ever likely do in a medium or larger battle is even with the bad guys, action die wise, and then the shadow towers disapear!
Elites main old ability was to continue in combat. Sure both sides could do it. Now the shadow sometimes can and the Free always can.
Saruman or the Witch King used to be the first question. Allowing the Free an easy 5th dice is foolish, so now there is only grab Saruman and pump until the Ents arrive. Galadriel is by far the biggest change. Before, grabbing the WK was just what you did with the fourth muster. Now she is just too large a price.
Galadriel has all sorts of other effects. The leadership in Lorien is obvious, but she also means the Elves never get 3 stronghold trapped and then taken. She directly helps the fellowship by eating eyes in Mordor, and encouraging 1 less companion to separate. Her getting Gandalfs 5th die means Gandalf can stay in the Fship and draw character cards. This is valuable.
Galadriel is Huge. She is big enough that she delays the WK, and demands to see the Balrog. The Balrog has good rules and plastic. The kicker is the free elite.
The main drawback to the Balrog is the 3 free politics. But these were always a bad way to spend a die, so maybe encouraging the Free to spend dice on the Dwarves, North and Elves is a good thing. Odd how the Balrog draws Galadriel.
The new Witch King, The Chief of the Nazgul, seems weak. I think it does have its uses, but on him I will reserve judgement until I am sure. In a very long, slow, hunty game, he could really shine. And running out of cards with the old WK was an occasional problem.
Smeagol seems a flat out gift to the fellowship. Maybe this is fair enough, since corruption isn't the best win.
And Regarding Dew North.
Dew North was not really much of a problem for the original game. Playing it badly meant the shadow always got to 7+ points. To automatically win with Shadow required a real knowledge of the game. Knowledge that could only be found if you went out and looked.
Dew North is still a win, but it is much, much harder. I doubt there is more than 5 people who know this, and they aint talkin'.
All reports I have been seeing claim the Free people keep winning. But Shadow is still try to kill Gandalf by placing eyes in the opening turn, so I dont really trust these reports. The game has certainly been rebalanced.
This expansion is excellent, pity it didn't delete Woodland Realm.
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Veldrin
Lord of the Nazgûl
Posts: 1,305
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Post by Veldrin on Jun 25, 2006 19:39:35 GMT 1
Glad you liked it!
[glow=green,2,300]Veldrin[/glow]
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Veldrin
Lord of the Nazgûl
Posts: 1,305
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Post by Veldrin on Jun 28, 2006 10:45:57 GMT 1
If you attack Lorien early you will draw out Galadriel (since I assume you need Sauron units in the attack) and the help she might give to the Fellowship before you finally take Lorien can be substantial, especially if Sméagol also enters the Fellowship.
Any thoughts on if it is worth it by attacking Rivendell early?
[glow=green,2,300]Veldrin[/glow]
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Post by Goodgulf the Grey on Jun 29, 2006 13:36:11 GMT 1
I think that if you want to play a new WK game then you need to take out Lorien before/or along with Rivendell. You will need Sauron at War and you will need to eliminate Galadriel if she is mustered. Also, your other likely targets are Woodland Realm and either Gray Havens+Shire+Dale OR Dol Amroth + (GH or Shire/Dale/Pelagir).
I would ignore Rohan and Gondor in this type of game and force the FP to activate those nations. You may not even need the S&E to War until very late depending on the cards drawn.
Use Early Musters on Isengard and Saruman and Dunlendings. Move the Dol Goldur army in position to attack Lorien. Get Isengard forces north to either Rivendell or Moria (to support Lorien siege). Put everything needed to take Lorien because the only way for the FP to get it back will be to use Ents+Rohan and that will take a lot of effort. Galadriel can be annoying but if you hit Lorien early enough and have Musters for Siege Engines while the FP player needs Musters for (Galadriel+Trebechets+Troops) you can limit Galdriel's impact on the game. Prepare for losing a lot of forces but also you will deplete the Elven reinforcement pool quickly. This allows the SP to take out the other Elven Strongholds with little resistance (since you won't activate other nations (ie North) until late in the game.
I think the Balrog is a mandatory Muster in this strategy. The only drawback is that he pushes the Elves one step closer to war but you cannot afford to let the Fellowship slip through Moria too easily.
The hardest question is how many Eyes do you allocate to the hunt when the FP is not revealed. You really need Musters so I could see putting 0 or 1 on turn 1 but I would rather err on the side of caution in this type of game and start with 2 on turn 1. If the FP wants to spend his character dice to promote Strider then he is not moving the FSP and this gives you time to set up the siege on Lorien. Once Galadriel is removed then the Fellowship is easier to reveal and Eyes are more effective with all the hunt dice you will be using. Also, you should be playing for a longer game and with that in mind I would continue to allocate several dice to the hunt every turn so that the FSP has a very difficult time making any significant progress.
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SevenSpirits
Nazgûl
PlayTester
Sauron meant no harm. He only wanted to draw the extra cards...
Posts: 283
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Post by SevenSpirits on Jul 4, 2006 3:28:57 GMT 1
This looks like an interesting discussion. But MagicGeek, could you clarify why when the FSP is faced with zero eyes, they would get a turn 1 Aragorn? I would think moving three times and getting Galadriel would be quite a bit better.
Also, if I understand you correctly, your FP player is splitting off many companions turn one. Why in thiws case would you not choose the Black Captain if Sauron is going to war anyway? The activation won't matter a lot, and surely you can at least a agree that drawing many strategy cards would be good against an early Aragorn. Right?
As for placing two eyes on turn one... I agree you should never do that.
Anyway, I'm glad you like the expansion. What do you think the new balance is?
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SevenSpirits
Nazgûl
PlayTester
Sauron meant no harm. He only wanted to draw the extra cards...
Posts: 283
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Post by SevenSpirits on Jul 5, 2006 6:00:11 GMT 1
Well, Yes, FSP 3 moves + Galadriel is better than turn 1 Aragorn. Pity it is not possible in the example I gave. At the point you move the FSP, Sauron is not at war. OK, so you are willing to adapt your strategy - that's good. Nevertheless, I think 4 fellowship moves are much better than turn one Aragorn (and unless you had something like Book of Mazarbul or Gwaihir, they are equally feasible). With a start like that, it's going to be very difficult to race you. And in the example (which I know is not representative of anything, but that's what we're talking about hypothetically), the SA is then stranded with two more character dice which they were ideally planning to use on attacks (though playing your red tile and using any elven ring that comes your way to summon the Balrog would be good uses for them as well). The funniest thing about moving 4 times is that if you declare past Moria, it actually lets you get Aragorn in only TWO dice if you roll a Will turn two (which is better than spending four and getting the extra die for one extra turn). But getting Aragorn isn't the end-all, be all anyway. Moving four times unopposed is a VERY good start. I kind of agree with this - generally, the Shadow still has an advantage. But I think that extreme WK strategies got powered down noticably (though they are still the best). I think that Galadriel singlehandedly allows the FP to win this race, by making Lorien hard and adding a 5th die that only costs musters to produce (the ring ability is pointless in this kind of game). But perhaps I haven't figured out the new best military blitz yet. My opinion is that the new WK definitely hurts you if you pick him, the dunlendings are useful just because they are an efficient use of a single muster die, and the Corsairs can be nice in certain situations to besiege Dol Amroth before they can muster. The Balrog is also often good. This does indeed seem to be the case. What would you tell them to do to fix this? That's what I meant. Sometimes you are wrong. But usually it's just because people didn't understand what you meant. I think so too. My favorite part is how we can't agree on which way the game is imbalanced any more. It used to be so obvious. One more thing... I keep getting the impression that in your metagame, the Free Peoples like to separate companions and get extra dice quickly, and try to defend militarily. At the same time, I get the impression that your Shadow keeps winning... and I can't help but wonder why you don't rush the Fellowship faster.
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Post by Goodgulf the Grey on Jul 5, 2006 16:18:12 GMT 1
Why never? I understand that generally the SP is trying to maximize his 1st turn Muster dice so that he can get more dice via Saruman and Balrog/WK, but if you want to play a long shadow hunt game then I think it is still viable to put more than one eye in the hunt box.
Of course the current Hunt WK may not be quite strong enough for this strategy, but with his ability and a bunch of Nazgul hounding the fellowship PLUS a long game drawing out most of the character deck it becomes very difficult for the FP to pull out a Ring victory.
The risk of putting only 1 Eye in the hunt is that it allows too many double FP moves in many instances.
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SevenSpirits
Nazgûl
PlayTester
Sauron meant no harm. He only wanted to draw the extra cards...
Posts: 283
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Post by SevenSpirits on Jul 5, 2006 16:51:44 GMT 1
Michael, I think it's a small price to pay since the FP player would rather be getting extra dice on turn one. Giving them other good things to do isn't that bad - unless you are actually letting them move completely for free. With one eye, at least if they move 3 times they will draw a tile on average. And usually, you'll roll another eye anyway.
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Post by Goodgulf the Grey on Jul 5, 2006 22:41:30 GMT 1
Sean, I agree that in general putting more than 1 eye is wasteful since you are likely to roll another. In the situation I'm discussing above the SP is trying to keep the FP from moving too far from Rivendell so that he can extend the game for as many turns as possible. The SP is not planning on bringing in the Black Captain and this should force the FP to separate companions anyway to activate FP nations so maybe the extra Eye isn't needed. However, the SP cannot afford to have only 1 Eye and allow the FP to move 2 spaces with no consequences and then have little chance of putting Rivendell under siege with the FSP still there. In my mind the goal would be to get the Balrog and Saruman on turn 1 and then to try and put Rivendell AND Lorien under siege by turn 2 or 3. Muster the Witch King by turn 3 or 4 and also take Lorien over before the FP gets much use of Galadriel. Now the SP just has to defend wherever the FP companions go and can attack the Elven strongholds with methodical precision possibly taking the Shire and Dale for the other 2 VPs. If the Fellowship gets too far too fast then the siege of Rivendell has little meaning and the FSP may still be able to outrace the shadow as the Hunting WK is much weaker if the FSP has moved halfway to Mordor before he shows up
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Post by Goodgulf the Grey on Jul 10, 2006 12:58:32 GMT 1
Actually, I believe that it will give an extra re-roll. Likewise, SP Strongholds captured by the FP will not give an extra re-roll.
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Post by Goodgulf the Grey on Jul 10, 2006 13:13:11 GMT 1
I agree with this. I don't think he is terrible, but that he is still the weaker choice overall and therefore won't get played as often. Played a game last week with the new WK. I did allow him to come into play with 2 Nazgul but didn't use any other abilities. The Shadow won a military victory on turn 11 with the FP just about to declare into Mordor. Galadriel was mustered and Lorien destroyed on the same turn (Grond helped take it out quickly - I think turn 4). Rivendell and the Havens were also destroyed. Woodland realm fell late and final two victory points came from Shire and Pelagir. This was the first game I can remember where Gondor (and Rohan) was on step 1 of the political track for most of the game. - Stormcrow was played on Gondor. The armies in Mordor never even moved. Rohan and Gondor were activated by Companions and the Elves, Dwarves, and Men were at war. Tom Bombadil delayed the SP for a few turns (no Army card! ). The SP placed 2 dice in the hunt every turn (except the last turn which was 0) and had no turns with more than 4 eyes total. The FP was revealed on their 2nd move in turn 1 and went the high pass route (since Balrog was in play). The FP was unable to roll many character dice early and late couldn't get muster dice so the SP had many advantages.
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Veldrin
Lord of the Nazgûl
Posts: 1,305
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Post by Veldrin on Jul 13, 2006 10:27:32 GMT 1
If memory serves me right, Capturing Rivendell doesn't actually give me a reroll as well because it is not a shadow stronghold, is that right? You get a reroll if the Stronghold is controlled by the Shadow. [glow=green,2,300]Veldrin[/glow]
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Veldrin
Lord of the Nazgûl
Posts: 1,305
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Post by Veldrin on Jul 16, 2006 5:52:02 GMT 1
Yes, the new Witch-King doesn't need Sauron to be at War.
A good incentive to use him if you are playing a Galadriel denial strategy.
[glow=green,2,300]Veldrin[/glow]
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Post by Goodgulf the Grey on Jul 18, 2006 14:53:03 GMT 1
Actually there are 11 Army cards in the Shadow Strategy deck and 15 Muster cards. So it is very possible that you could go a few turns without drawing an Army card. Keep in mind that this was not a Black Captain game so there was no card cycling.
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Veldrin
Lord of the Nazgûl
Posts: 1,305
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Post by Veldrin on Jul 30, 2006 10:20:30 GMT 1
Some rule help:
You never roll more than 5 dice when rolling for the Hunt.
If the Hunt Pool is emtpy (or the only tile left is the Smeagol tile) all drawn tiles are reinserted into the Hunt Pool.
"Worn With Sorrow and Toil" always forces the FP to lose a card when a Companion in the Fellwoship is eliminated.
Did I miss any other questions?
[glow=green,2,300]Veldrin[/glow]
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