Saruman as an independent force

[Veldrin]

A good expansion would be to create a three-player game where Saruman acts alone, trying to achieve his own goal.

Perhaps he can learn things about the Fellowship's whereabaouts and seize the Ring for himself.

Thoughts, comments suggestions...

[glow=green,2,300]Veldrin[/glow]

[nigel]

Veldrin said:

A good expansion would be to create a three-player game where Saruman acts alone, trying to achieve his own goal.

Perhaps he can learn things about the Fellowship's whereabaouts and seize the Ring for himself.

Thoughts, comments suggestions...

[glow=green,2,300]Veldrin[/glow]

This would be similar to SPI's War of the Ring - back in my youth my playgroup played around with different rules to make the 3 player game more viable.

To make it workable I think he'd need his own dice, a new 'hunt' mechanic for looking for the ring and his own cards, and victory conditions. I could see the Shire/Grey Haven's going down to his invasion, as it's pretty hard for Sauron to hit Isengard. And the FP would avoid the Gap of Rohan with the fellowship like the plague, so the movement of the fellowship might get quite predictable (ie. Moria or Goblin Gate).

I think it would be quite hard to come up with a balanced design that gives all 3 players an equal chance of victory without lots of new (fiddly?) rules.

Nigel

[Skanvak]

I agree with what is said above. I think that such an expansion is really a must.
About balance, you should think that too much balance can kill a game. Saruman is by definition the outsider, but he play a game of betrayal of both size. And as being the smalless but at a strategic location (militrarily most of the game I played where heavily influence by the fight in Rohan) Saruman has a lot of strategic and diplomatic option. If it is too powerful the game will either turn to a Saruman vs Sauron team as both have interest in smashing the free people or a predictable, as you said, ring game.

[nigel]

What about victory conditions?

Say Sauron needs 7 (8?) VPs of FP/Saruman settlements to win, FP need 4, and Saruman needs what? 4? 5?? It's not likely Sauron will target Saruman's stronghold, but I suppose Moria would be a target for Sharky. You might see Saurman/Sauron fighting over ownership of a conquered FP settlement. Obvious direction for Saruman is Moria/Shire/Grey Havens/Rivendell/Angmar as both Sauron and the FP aren't particularly strong in those areas and they aren't that far away from the muster settlements of Dunland.

Would a ring destruction defeat Saruman? (I can see the argument that a ring corruption defeats Saruman, as Sauron gets his ring back and sweeps all away with his increased power). If not then you might end up with a player 'elimination', leaving FP and Saruman to fight it out, which from a game point of view is not ideal. Similarly would Saruman gaining the One be an automatic win? Does he have the experience/knowledge to immediately use the One, or does it just boost his military/magic power but the war continue?

Purely from a theme standpoint I believe a 3 player Saruman as an independant power needs quite a bit of thought.

Nigel

[Skywalker]

I may have posted this on the wrong forum but here are some of my ideas:

Essentially, it doesn't change the existing game much. It adds a new seperate vistory condition for Saruman (capturing Frodo) and provides rules for determining the ultimate winner in a Shadow player's military victory.

Here is the general outline:

General

1. Saruman player only controls the Isengard forces. Sauron player controls the Sauron and Easterling/Southron forces.

2. Play turn goes Free Peoples player, Sauron player, Saruman player.

3. Saruman player gets 2 dice and Sauron player gets 5 dice. Minions give extra dice as before to the respective players.

4. Sauron and Saruman players have the same Event Deck hand as before and individually spend dice to play them.

5. Nazgul do not act as leaders for Isengard forces. Sauron/Easterling/Southron forces may not combine with Isengard forces. They may exist on the same space and may attack each other.

The Hunt

6. Saruman may not put any dice into the Hunt Pool but any "Eye" dice still get put there and is rolled by the Saruman player during a Hunt.

7. The Hunt Rules are the same except that if the Hunt Pool includes a Saruman dice and a tile is drawn that involves a Reveal and Corruption (an Eye, 1 or 2) then the Saruman player may elect to forgo the Hunt Damage and force the Fellowship player to eliminate as a casuality, a number of hobbits in the Fellowship equal to the Corruption (Frodo and Sam are considered 1 hobbit). When a Eye tiles if drawn the Hunt Damage is the successes rolled on Saruman dice only.

Victory Conditions

8. Sauron and Saruman players can win a military vistory if together they gain 10 VPs (as before). However, Sauron is considered the ultimate winner if he gains 7 VPs and/or Saruman is considered the ultimate winner if he gains 4 VPs.

9. If the Fellowship is corrupted, Sauron is the ultimate winner.

10. If Saruman manages to eliminate 3 hobbits from the Fellowship by the Hunt, then Saruman is the ulimate winner.

[cheup]

Skywalker said:

Victory Conditions

8. Sauron and Saruman players can win a military vistory if together they gain 10 VPs (as before). However, Sauron is considered the ultimate winner if he gains 7 VPs and/or Saruman is considered the ultimate winner if he gains 4 VPs.

9. If the Fellowship is corrupted, Sauron is the ultimate winner.

10. If Saruman manages to eliminate 3 hobbits from the Fellowship by the Hunt, then Saruman is the ulimate winner.

ad 8.:
What happens, if Saruman achieves to gain 4VPs while Sauron only has 5, say? Is the game over and won by Saruman?
I am asking, because if the game is not over there would be no need for Sauron to gain more VPs, since Saruman is already the winner.
One could include the rule, that once one of the Shadow players has managed to gain his amount of VPs the other may attack him as well and conquer his VPs.
This surely would be a realistic scenario, but one has to test if the game balance will still be OK.

ad 10.:
What if the Free Peoples player chooses to separate a Hobbit from the Fellowship? Will Saruman still be able to win the game by eliminating the remaining Hobbits?

[andypalmer]

I would say that #7 is far too potent. While admitedly rare (1 in 3 with 2 dice, 50% with 3) that a Saruman Eye die will be in the hunt box, the ability to not only FORCE casualties (instead of corruption) but to pick which characters get removed is not to be trifled with (especially considering how useful the hobbits are as guides in the late game).

Perhaps something like: Every casualty+reveal caused by the Saruman hunt die forces the FSP to move toward Orthanc before revealing. This may result in the FSP having to use the Gap of Rohan route. If this causes the FSP to be revealed in Orthanc, and Orthanc is still controlled by Saruman and not under siege, then Saruman has captured the ring and won the game.

[Skywalker]

cheup said:

ad 8.:
What happens, if Saruman achieves to gain 4VPs while Sauron only has 5, say? Is the game over and won by Saruman?
I am asking, because if the game is not over there would be no need for Sauron to gain more VPs, since Saruman is already the winner.
One could include the rule, that once one of the Shadow players has managed to gain his amount of VPs the other may attack him as well and conquer his VPs.
This surely would be a realistic scenario, but one has to test if the game balance will still be OK.

Good point. I am tempted to consider making 2 seperate Victory conditions of 4 and 7 respectively but would like to add in the need for a combined victory needed.

I guess I hoped that making the second Shadow Player receive "second place" would still be appealing. However, I understand that might be unsatisfactory for many players.

However, I did think about this in more detail and I think the dynamic will actually create the reluctant alliance I am hoping for. Both players are shooting for a military victory and will cooperate to achieve this. However, once they get close things will be a different matter.

I don't want to add in direct conflict if I can help it as I am leery it would make things too easy for the Free People's player. However, the Sauron player does have a number of options at the point above would be to:

1. Chase the ring more (also freeing up more Free People armies to attack Saruman).
2. Use the Saruman orientated Event Cards for Combat, depriving him of valuable resources.
3. Remove any military support from Saruman.
4. Race to get the last 2 VPs.

cheup said:

ad 10.:
What if the Free Peoples player chooses to separate a Hobbit from the Fellowship? Will Saruman still be able to win the game by eliminating the remaining Hobbits?

The Saruman victory condition only applies to Hobbits in the Fellowship. This does mean that the Free People's player will look to keep the Hobbits closer but given their ability to reappear this should actual reinforce genre.

If after playtesting, this doesn't work I will consider making it apply to any hobbit, whether they are in the FSP or not.

[Skywalker]

andypalmer said:

I would say that #7 is far too potent. While admitedly rare (1 in 3 with 2 dice, 50% with 3) that a Saruman Eye die will be in the hunt box, the ability to not only FORCE casualties (instead of corruption) but to pick which characters get removed is not to be trifled with (especially considering how useful the hobbits are as guides in the late game).

There are 16 hunt tiles. The relevant tiles (include a reveal) are 1x2 Corruption, 2x1 Corrpution and 4xEye Corruption. There is a 48% chance of at least 1 Saruman dice being in the Hunt Pool.

Assuming all 16 tiles are played (which is very rare) then the average number of hobbits Saruman would kill is 2.25. So assuming that less than 16 hunt tiles are played in the average game, this should average out at 2.

I agree it is a little high, especially given the possible removal of Hobbits from the FSP, though not by much.

What about making it a requirement that Saruman must roll a "success" to force the elimination, not just having a dice in the pool. This should decrease the average significantly (possibly as low as 1) but increase the randomness, making the win still possible.

[Lynx]

Given that another thread was opened on Saruman, I thought that this one could be developed more.

The ideas Skywalker propose are very good and gives a possibility of a tension between the two towers. I agree that Saruman should win if he gets the ring. The elimination of Hobbits is a good mechanic.

What about this?
*If there are hobbit companions in the fellowship, one die can be placed in the Hunt box by Saruman (if only FP, only "Eyes").
*Saruman's hunting is separate from Sauron, corruption is the same and vs Saruman's hunt damage, Hobbits MUST be taken as casualties (one per hunt success) and Saruman moves the FP from last known position if revealed.
*If FP reaches 12 corruption, Sauron normally wins, unless there are Saruman troops in the area that can claim the ring (always reveal when on 12, if a Saruman hunt he may move the FP and reveal...).
*If there are no Hobbit companions left when Hunt damage is caused by a Saruman hunt, this happens:
1) All companions are immediately separated and the FP is revealed and placed by Saruman- the Uruk-hai has taken Frodo and Sam!
2) Saruman can then move the FP mini to Orthanc, two spaces by any die or with an army as usual. If a Free People army captures the FP mini, the FP is restored to normal and the game continues (the FP is revealed in that location). If a Shadow army captures it, Sauron wins. If it is moving without an army (just an Orc band), a non-Hobbit Companion can free the FP.
3) Whenever the FP reaches Orthanc after being taken by Saruman's Orcs, if by revealing or moving the FP when taken, Saruman wins the game.

I haven't though of balance here yet, just some ideas. Moving the FP will be tricky, keeping away from Orthanc but also declaring often so as not to be moved to Orthanc if revealed by Saruman...

[animalmother]

The RING ITSELF should be the Third Independent Power. It controls Saruman and Gollum at start. It attempts to CORRUPT every Companion, Minion, and Leader it contacts. It is trying to find its way onto the finger of a powerful character, and isn't picky -- Boromir, Denethor, Galadriel, Gandalf, Saruman, Aragorn, an Elf Leader, a Human Leader, a Dwarf Leader, a Nazgul, Mouth of Sauron, the Balrog. Treebeard would be immune, as he seeks no dominion.

(I've written more on this topic in one or two of my recent posts. Sauron's suspicion that the Wise will soon use the RING against him is what kicks-off the War of the Ring. For a Machiavellian like Sauron, the Quest of the Fellowship was inconceivable. Who would throw away such a boon? Sauron's suspicion that one of the Wise, or some other powerful Western Lord, would seize the RING and use it against him was perfectly reasonable -- and a very real possibility which should somehow be built into the game.)

Sauron would KILL the Fellowship and seize the Ring. It is the RING itself which is attempting to CORRUPT the Fellowship, and every character or leader it contacts.

Some characters/leaders are high in both power and corruptibility (Balrog, Witch King, Mouth of Sauron, Boromir, Denethor; Saruman is already corrupted and thus RING controlled at start), others are high in power and medium in corruptibility (Galadriel, Elf Leaders east of the Misty Mountains), others high in power and low in corruptibility (Gandalf, Elf Leaders west of the Misty Mountains).

Dwarf, Gondor, and Nazgul Leaders are average in power and high in corruptibility.

Northern and Rohan Human Leaders are average in both power and corruptibility.

Gimili and Legolas are average in power and low in corruptibility.

Hobbits are low in power and low in corruptibility.

Sauron and the Ring should each get four Action Dice, and each wage their own separate Hunt for the Ring. Sauron hits kill characters, and have effect only if a Sauron Army, or if Sauron Leaders superor in strength to the Fellowship have been committed in sufficient strength to the Hunt -- the more Armies and Leaders, the more Hunt Tiles Sauron gets. If Frodo and Sam are killed, Sauron gets the Ring.

The Ring is also hunting itself, and works by corruption. Each turn bearing the ring adds to the corruption of the Ring Bearer. An Eye Action Die lets the Ring work on corrupting one Character or Leader by adding corruption chits to the Characters or Leader's chit. The Ring is activated when it has corrupted its bearer. Other corrupted Characters/Leaders can attempt to seize the Ring from a weak Ring Bearer, whether the bearer has been corrupted or not.

The Ring, as a competitor for power in its own right, would also have a fair crack at pealing off Saron Allies, such as the Easterling and Southron nations. If the Expansion game Cosairs of Umbar are used, they could be a Third nation. All of the Nations should be set back one space on the Political Track (except Isengard). Whoever advances a nation most steps toward "At War" gets it as an Ally.

Let me know what y'all think of this rough-hewn idea. Thanks.

[SevenSpirits]

That is a very cool idea!

[mt77584]

I haven't played the game much, but had already thought that Saruman could be a "third player" or at least a threat to both the Free Peoples (FP) and to the Shadow (SP).


SET-UP

I am not a master of the rules, so there could be some mistakes in how I understand things. One element does make use of the LoTR films, based on what was mentioned in a previous post.

The Isengard token begins as active ("red") on the Political Track, but not yet "At War." There are several triggers to cause SA to move to "At War":

1. Any army enters the Isengard Nation;
2. Any army attacks an Isengard army;
3. An SP Minion or Ringwraith enters the Isengard Nation (a Companion is exempt); and then the most complicated:

4. The Fellowship is declared or revealed any of these territories: High Pass, Goblin's Gate, Fords of Isen, Fangorn, Druwaith Iaur, or any of the Isengard ("yellow") Nations. However, Moria is exempt, as that is an SP territory.

Once Isengard is "At War," Saruman (I'll call the Saruman Player "SA") comes into play and SA would have 1 die. Play would proceed as follows: FP, SP; and then SA. SA cannot be "passed to" and always goes last. Before rolling the die Saruman receives, SA can choose to either 1. Roll his one die; or 2. Not roll, and have "Lurtz" come into play the next turn adding a second die. (Lurtz is never required to be brought into play.) SA would only ever have 2 dice, one for Saruman himself and one for his hero Lurtz. (In the film the first Uruk-hai who presumably also killed Boromir) Saruman cannot leave Orthanc (as is standard), therefore Lurtz would be the only movable SA Leader (Lurtz could be represented by using one of Sauron's Trolls to distinguish him from the Isengard Wargrider Elite and to remember where he is, which is quite important).

Lurtz has a unique combat ability: He counts as one army unit but also as a Leader. That means if Lurtz and three Regular SA units attack an army, four dice are rolled. But, Lurtz also has one Leadership Re-Roll.


THE DECEITFULNESS OF SARUMAN (GAMEPLAY)

In a game with Saruman, the game concludes almost in a stalemate. That might be frustrating to a lot of players. Saruman craves the One Ring, but if he cannot get the One Ring he will carve out his own kingdom.

SA uses the red die (or if Lurtz is in play, two red dice). All sides of the die act as normal, except the Eye symbol of the die. The Eye symbol represents Saruman's use of the Orthanc-stone palantir. It's effect is somewhat similar to the SP effect, with an exception and a choice: no Hunt Tile is drawn; 1. There is 1 Corruption Point added, OR 2. The Ringbearers are "Revealed" and moved one territory toward Orthanc. (Example: From Edoras to Westemnet; from Dagorlad to North Ithilien). SA has final say on if the chosen territory is closer to Orthanc.

This is one reason why SA goes last. He has revealed the Fellowship, but the FP is next, and hopefully can hide again.


"TAKE BACK THE LANDS THEY STOLE FROM YOU. BURN EVERY VILLAGE!" (Military Victory)

SA wins a Military Victory if he has at least one army in the ten territories that make up the Isengard Nation and Rohan Nation. SA's Military Victory condition is not based on the value of a settlement, but each of the territories: 1. Is occupied by an SA army unit, 2. Not under siege by another Nation, and 3. Not besieging another Nation's army. If these Military Victory conditions exist, Saruman wins the game. (I could further explain this, but it gets into musing about Middle-Earth and "what-ifs.")

"SO THE RING OF POWER HAS BEEN FOUND." (Ring-Based Victory)

This is also a complicated way to win. It incorporates some earlier elements (such as how the Eye symbol represents the use of the Orthanc-stone), but also decisions of FP and SP:

1. There are no other armies in the Isengard Nation and Rohan Nation, except those of Isengard and Rohan (No Elves, Gondor, Dwarves, Sauron, etc., or even Minions; Companions are not counted).
2. Galdalf (Grey and White) has been removed from play.
3. The Ringbearers are revealed in a territory completely controlled by SA; OR the Ringbearers are revealed in a territory occupied or besieged by Lurtz. However, if Lurtz under siege, then this condition is unmet.

In the Ring-Based Victory, Lurtz has followed his orders to find the Halflings and brings (the right ones!) back to Saruman.


It should be rather obvious that it would be very difficult for Saruman to win, based on the complexity of his victory conditions.

I haven't had a chance to look over which cards would be helpful or harmful.

Those with a lot of gameplay experience or even baseline strategic skill can probably already figure out how to stymie Saruman's ambitions. I see quite aa few as well, which makes Saruman more of a thorn in the other players' sides or a distracting pest. However, that would be part of the challenge of being the Saruman Player!