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Post by deserter on Oct 9, 2007 12:53:36 GMT 1
I have also become a bit annoyed about some unthematic bits of the War of the Ring, so I was trying to figure out how to fix them. I'm not really trying to change the balance of the game either way. It has been fine so far with my games. I'm mainly looking for some constructive feedback on the following thoughts. (And maybe I'm bringing a healthy dose of fresh thoughts to the discussion.)
Oh, I'm obvously playing with the Twilight...
Unthematic Problem #1: - Killing Gandalf/getting Galadriel in the beginning is too obvious. - You really really want the fifth die in play early on, for the gain from an extra die is so high. *The fifth die should come from somewhere unrelated to FP characters.*
Unthematic Problem #2: - You want to keep Gandalf/Aragorn them away from battles at all cost most of the time. - You can't afford to lose the dice, because that slows down the Fellowship too much. *The gain from getting Gandalf/Aragorn should be lower, thus the loss of G/A would be lower also.*
Unthematic Problem #3: - Legolas, Gimli and Boromir are the meatwall protecting the ring - you don't really care about the poor captains of the West. - The meatwall issue is fine for the rest of the fellowship, because they either don't really die or it hurts a lot more to lose them(=Strider). - There isn't really an iniative to separate them for the war. *Their combat abilities or other capabilities should be boosted a bit.*
Thematic solutions: - Galadriel doesn't get the extra die. (She becomes more involved only if she sees that Lorien is under threat.) - Gandalf gives a Character Action Token and Aragorn gives an Army/Muster Action Token (more or less like BOTTA) instead of an extra die. (The functions of the tokens are described later.) - Gandalf and Aragorn get into play with Muster AD instead of WOW AD. (As they don't help the FSP progress now, getting them shouldn't slow the FSP down either.) - Free Peoples gain the fifth die when (haven't really decided when) one/two enemy nations go to war OR first minion is mustered OR the like. (When it becomes obvious that the Shadow is preparing for war.) - The companions that have the Captain of the West ability could receive following ability: If there there's any Captains of the West in the battle, you may raise one regular unit's morale before the battle (Regular -> Elite). (I plan to just heal a wounded elite. I'm using kind of a wounding system instead of downgrading the units.)
Action tokens: - These should be used as a die, not instead of passing. - Tokens give more or less a half of an normal action. - Character Action Token: 1. Play a Character Card. (Possibly also drawing option.) 2. Move one group of companions. 3. Use Companion Special Ability. (Hobbit resurrection or politics with the 2nd level guys.) - Army/Muster Action Token: 1. Play a Strategy Card. (Possibly also drawing option.) 2. Muster one regular or leader. 3. Move one army.
Wounding System: I'm thinking that it's really stupid that it can happen for example that you muster your elven regulars and get attacked after that and you can't downgrade an Elite to a Regular just because you don't have any left (assuming there haven't been casualties yet either.) So instead of just losing an Elite for taking one hit, I rather put a small rubber band around the Elite to indicate that it has only one hitpoint left. I'm not allowing the Wargs to be Leaders when wounded, and require a wholesome Elite to continue the Siege, but otherwise I'm letting the Elites be Elites even when they're wounded.
Notes: - I'm unsure about when the fifth die should get into play, considering that you can't get the sixth die at all. Basically you're stuck with 2.5 Fellowship actions per round till the end of the game when you normally get 3 actions from some point. (The action tokens don't really help the fellowship move.) So fifth die for the second round is likely fine. Thus I'm inclined to the 'one enemy enters the war'-rule. Although it might be likely that the Shadow always takes Balrog and advances S&E with two first round musters. Is stagnant, is bad. So maybe I should go with: First enemy to war OR first minions. Heck, I don't know... - I'm also concerned if the Moral Boosting ability is overpowered or not. Maybe it should be given to Aragorn only with a Healing theme... Then what for the other guys instead? Or is it enough that their political abilities can be used with Gandalfs CAT? - Does the cheaper upgrading of Gandalf/Aragorn and possibly the healing thingy make up for the AT instead of a Die? Is there enough iniative to upgrade G/A?
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Post by Goodgulf the Grey on Oct 9, 2007 17:57:07 GMT 1
It sounds like you want to get away from tying Action Dice to Companions/Characters...
I might consider giving the FP +1 Action die when the first FP nation goes to War. Give them another Action die when ALL FP nations are at War.
Keep SP action dice the same as in the Expansion Game.
I wouldn't add any extra rules for GtW or Aragorn yet...if you really want to get away from the Will of the West limitation then I would just use any FP action die to promote.
Play it some and see what happens. If the Fellowship stays together in everygame then maybe it needs some tweaks but I think the 6th action die condition might encourage some interesting choices. It might even encourage Gimli/Legolas to get their respective nations to War...
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Post by mrweasely on Oct 10, 2007 6:00:42 GMT 1
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Post by deserter on Oct 11, 2007 12:01:24 GMT 1
It sounds like you want to get away from tying Action Dice to Companions/Characters... Not really, at least not for the Shadow. The problem seems to be more like getting Gandalf/Aragorn/Galadriel into play as fast as possible. Tying the AD to them promotes this. IMO Galadriel's involvement shouldn't be so straightforward and Gandalf/Aragorn should be more committed to sticking with the FSP. I would expect them to be of a more use to the FSP in it than out of it. If you separate them to boost the FSP, it goes against the theme. So... Untying the AD from Characters seems like a possible solution. I might consider giving the FP +1 Action die when the first FP nation goes to War. Give them another Action die when ALL FP nations are at War. Something like this would be fine otherwise, but why would you want to spend dice to separate and/or promote Gandalf or Aragorn then? Their promotion have to be a viable option after all. if you really want to get away from the Will of the West limitation then I would just use any FP action die to promote. That was not what I meant. Will of the West limitation is fine (again thematically), but in the system I presented it would take Actions away from the FSP, and practically not give anything back. Better to take the Action from the military if you are getting that action back later. Thus you don't lose anything. (And Muster is a logical choice as all the other characters also use it.) Play it some and see what happens. If the Fellowship stays together in everygame then maybe it needs some tweaks but I think the 6th action die condition might encourage some interesting choices. It might even encourage Gimli/Legolas to get their respective nations to War... I will play it when I have the time (and someone else also), which is not necessarily soon. I don't play the game so so often anyways. There are other good games after all. I agree on a lot, no surprises there. You're certainly on the right track. Spending a sword to separate/move a group of companions just sucks to high heaven. The cost in meat shield should be the main one, not the lost energy of a die. The Companions should be stronger in combat. Giving out a free hit at the start of every combat is huge, and will really annoy the WK. Has anyone thought of giving them card redrawing like the WK? Thematically its CrAZy for them to have this power, but remember that they're a lot less mobile than the WK, and that the Shadow controls the pace of the battle. A assume you've read the development threads for Action Token WotR? There's lots of good points in there. Yeah, Moral Boosting for Companions ability ruled out. It is hard to give them anything subtle enough... The card redrawing would probably be overpowered also. I often find the lack of combat cards quite crippling, when the Shadow makes one of those long planned attacks on many fronts at the same time. Maybe either of these could work for Aragorn though. I'm still thinking that he needs a boost to keep him battling. And yes, I have read about the Action Token Wotr. I don't like it much though, because it's too complicated with the passing rules and throwing dice to see if you actually managed to use one. Otherwise I do agree that there's plenty of good points to it.
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Post by deserter on Oct 11, 2007 13:03:12 GMT 1
Double posting to keep things nice and granular... I'll try to take a bit different perspective for the most important issues. 1: -Gandalf out of FSP allows FSP to move faster. One extra die gives 0.5 FSP Actions per turn. -Other 0.5 goes for military, which is a fine thing. -Thus you can make an argument that Gandalf in the Fellowship actually slows it down. BAD2: -Gandalf out of FSP sometimes wants to sacrifice himself in the battle to buy some time. FINE3: -Aragorn out of FSP doesn't have much effect on FSP speed. Half a die is about as useful as the Guiding ability. -Gives a nice boost to Military as you don't use your military dice for the Fellowship. FINE4: -Aragorn out of FSP can rarely buy considerable amount of time by staying for a fight. Thus it seems better to move him out of way than to lose the die in battle. BADI would happily make an argument that if Gandalf/Aragorn would really concentrate in FSP progress, they should stick with the FSP. Instead Gandalf actually slows down the progress (is against theme), and Strider doesn't really make a difference versus Aragorn (is fine). You can't really say that as a smaller group they move faster, when the other companions don't affect the speed. Thus you should really separate Gandalf/Aragorn (and the rest also) purely for military reasons. Also losing of them should hurt mostly on military side of the game, not the FSP side. (Losing them from the FSP itself hurts enough.) So... If you get the fifth die from somewhere else than Characters, they want to stick with the FSP if they want to keep it speeding towards Mordor. If the military needs are so strong that they would be better fighting against the Shadow and helping FSP indirectly that way, they would leave. With the Action Tokens (my version) the Gandalf would hold the Fellowship together (it fits IMO) because after his death the sepatation would be more meaningful, thanks to better mobility. Also Aragorn would help solely the military with his token. And isn't that why he would get crowned in the first place? (Beside coolness factor of being a king that Aragorn might take into consideration also.) Do you agree? Please tell me if you don't and point out the pitfalls of my deduction that remain hidden to me. (After all, you guys are much more experienced with the game than me.) Actually Aragorn might be good with a full use of the token, not just half an action. Not sure. I just hope to test these things sooner rather than later. Only then you can see if it's crap or not.
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Post by Goodgulf the Grey on Oct 11, 2007 15:51:36 GMT 1
How about the following: - FP gets an action die when an FP nation (other than the Elves)goes to War.
- FP gets 2nd action die when Gandalf(or Galadriel) and Strider are promoted.
- FP loses an action die if at any time Gandalf the White, Galadriel, or Aragorn are not in play AND the SP has 6 or more VP's.
- I have always been in favor of changing Boromir, Legolas, and Gimli's ability to - During the Fellowship phase advance [respective nation] 1 step on the political track if [companion] is in an FP controlled Settlement of that nation.
- Boromir, Legolas, and Gimli get +1 Leadership when they are in an army with at least one unit from their nation.
The above changes would allow for an early action die if the FP can get a nation to war. I excluded the Elves since there is already an incentive to get them to War (Galadriel). The other action die would be available only if the FP can get Aragorn promoted and either Gandalf/Galadriel. The FP would only lose an action die if they lost all 3 late in the game. I think the last two changes would make the level 2 companions more valuable outside of the Fellowship. (Edited to add Galadriel to 3rd bullet)
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Post by deserter on Oct 11, 2007 17:40:05 GMT 1
How about the following: - FP gets an action die when an FP nation (other than the Elves)goes to War.
- FP gets 2nd action die when Gandalf(or Galadriel) and Strider are promoted.
- FP loses an action die if at any time Gandalf the White or Aragron are not in play AND the SP has 6 or more VP's.
- I have always been in favor of changing Boromir, Legolas, and Gimli's ability to - During the Fellowship phase advance [respective nation] 1 step on the political track if [companion] is in an FP controlled Settlement of that nation.
- Boromir, Legolas, and Gimli get +1 Leadership when they are in an army with at least one unit from their nation.
It sounds mostly good. Although the rule for the sixth die would render Aragorn by himself almost useless. (Well, there's that +1 to leadership, but better to recruit a leader and a regular somewhere else instead.) Also in case of dead Aragorn, Gandalf the White wouldn't give other than white rider ability in exchange for captain of the west ability. (Galadriel would be fine still. I don't even want her to get a die.) The companion stuff is sound IMO. Although 2 leadership is quite much. Imagine Gimli and Legolas with an army of mixed dwarf and elf. 4 leadership for those two guys doesn't feel quite right. It just hit me really, how useless that politics advancement ability is. You don't really want to spend your precious Character results for it, so it's only useful with Event results. Which I tend to welcome (in a right 1/6 quantity), because discarding cards feels like such a waste. Well, I don't remember EVER using the ability actually. Go wonder...
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Post by mrweasely on Oct 11, 2007 21:36:10 GMT 1
The main use of the political abilities is openings in Lorien to squeeze out Galadriel on Turn 2.
Goodgulf, I've not fully digested your suggestions, so I defer on them.
I like the WK-redraw ability for a crowned Aragorn. At least for Strategy Cards. He shouldn't be able to redraw character cards. But the combat effects in the strategy deck are quite reasonable for him to be dispensing: Shield Wall, Valor, Charge, No Quarter. These are Kingly things, yes?
I also like the companion political effects happening for free. It just seems right. It would give strong power to seperating LOTS of companions early and spreading them all over the map for free Musters. If that became a boringly popular strategy it could be reigned in to just one such free muster per FSP phase.
This would make the kids tougher:
Daring Defiance v2.0 Play only if a Captain of the West is in the battle. During this combat round the Free Player may cancel one hit per Captain of the West.
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Post by rafamir on Oct 12, 2007 2:37:43 GMT 1
Some of the ideas suggested are elegant. General Thematic Improvements
Aragorn Strategy Card-cycling - yes Fellowship Phase Political Influence - yes Daring Defiance 2.0 - yes They don't necessarily address the AD#5 and AD#6 issues, of course. (The Action Tokens strike me as a half-measure - I would prefer to avoid them.) FP Action Dice MechanismsI think there are two variant elements aired in other threads that could make for a simple mechanism for AD#5, while AD#6 builds on the suggestions earlier in this thread: 1. Immediate AD#5 - This would be like the Wizardry variant's Extra Event provision, where the FP get an extra Palantir every turn until GtW enters play. (GtW allows you to start rolling the Palantir Die as a full Action Die.) 1a. Early AD#5 - Call it Wisdom instead of Wizardry. One could link the Palantir to mustering Elrond in Rivendell (using a Muster Die, see Goodgulf's variant below), thus the extra events played would reflect his wisdom and foresight. 2. Later AD#6 - This could be tied to Shadow having two minions ( not Balrog) in play. This would present a cost for the Shadow deploying WK early. Losing Extra FP Action DiceAlmost forgot. This should still be an attainable objective for the Shadow, eliminating the FP's extra dice. I'm thinking off the top of my head here. A simple formula would be losing two of the following eliminates one Action Die, losing the other two eliminates the second Action Die: - Rivendell
- Lorien
- Gandalf the White
- Aragorn
This has the advantage of reducing the risks for the Free People's player if he/she chooses to keep Gandalf Grey and Strider uncrowned. =================================== Elrond, Lord of Rivendell
(Use a figure to represent Elrond in Rivendell, or alternatively forfeit the Elven leader figure who now becomes an immobile Elrond) Movement 0 Leadership 2 If Saruman is in play and neither Gandalf the White nor Galadriel are in play, use a Muster die to play Elrond in Rivendell.- Healing Guidance – Remove 1 Corruption by using a Will of the West AND 1 Elven Ring. - Elladan and Elrohir – Use an Action die And 1 Elven Ring to move an Elven unit (Regular or Elite) and an Elven Leader from Rivendell to the region with Strider/Aragorn. If Elrond AND Galadriel are in play, or have been in play, then the SP may muster the Mouth of Sauron with a Muster die.
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Post by deserter on Oct 12, 2007 10:00:34 GMT 1
Rafamir: What about Gandalf the White and Aragorn? Would you ever bother to get them? Maybe yes if you were striving for FP military victory. But if you were on a ring quest, why bother? I would certainly think that GtW and the King should give a nice boost (which they currently do), but the loss of them cannot be so devastating that you may want to have them sitting on Rauros Falls alone in fear. "If I die now, Frodo in Mordor is going to be depressed and start merely crawling towards the Crack." The whole point of the Action Tokens was to make the loss of the guys more of a military loss. A smaller loss also, having a smaller gain in the first place by dividing the sixth die between GtW and Aragorn, and finally committing it for things happening outside of the Fellowship. This is the concept that no-one has either grasped yet or doesn't have anything else to say than "I like cubes more than rectangles." (Hmm, I just read a big chunk of magicgeek on another thread. His style may be affecting me. Today I seem to be blunter and meaner.) I've considered Wizardry also. It sounds excellent, but I see the same potency for GtW (and Aragorn as ever) falling to summer cottage in fear. Do you actually see the fearful GtW/Aragorn as a real phenomenom? I have moved the guys in the middle of nowhere plenty of times, especially Aragorn. Galdalf is more worth sacrificing with his anti-nazqul ninja abilities. On a second thought, Witch-Kings card ability feels nicer when it's unique. Healing gains some preference for Aragorn due its uniqueness.
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Post by Goodgulf the Grey on Oct 12, 2007 14:42:33 GMT 1
Usually the FP needs Aragorn/GtW defending the last 2 VPs since stopping the Shadow is more important than getting an extra die to advance the Fellowship. Sometimes GtW will sit in Fangorn waiting to see what the SP plan of attack is and then respond to defend against the Nazgul.
You keep wondering why would the FP promote Aragorn/GtW without the action die benefit...Their leadership and abilities are not trivial and several event cards are useful with them too. GtW's ability against Nazgul is huge and he has to be in play for the Ent cards. Paths of the Dead, Challenge of the King, and Anduril are all strong cards for Aragorn. If you increase their combat abilities too much then you run the risk of weakening the SP Military conditions and giving the FP too much advantage in the expansion.
If you really want more incentive for Aragorn -- how about the following tweak from Veldrin:
The Healing Powers of Aragorn, Heir to Isildur If the Fellowship is Declared in a FP City or Stronghold where Aragorn, Heir to Isildur (not Strider) is also present the Fellowship may Heal 2 Corruption points instead of 1.
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Post by mrweasely on Oct 12, 2007 16:51:46 GMT 1
Let me add my voice to Goodgulf's: yes, these level-3 companions do see combat, usually when the Shadow has 7+ victory points.
Backing up a bit, a freshly minted Aragorn early in the game is often threatened. In response, he will usually undertake a diplomatic mission to Edoras and Dunharrow, leaving Denethor in charge of the mundane defense of Gondor.
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Post by rafamir on Oct 13, 2007 6:31:09 GMT 1
The whole point of the Action Tokens was to make the loss of the guys more of a military loss. A smaller loss also, having a smaller gain in the first place by dividing the sixth die between GtW and Aragorn, and finally committing it for things happening outside of the Fellowship. This is the concept that no-one has either grasped yet or doesn't have anything else to say than "I like cubes more than rectangles." I've played a few games with Action Tokens and like them okay. I would still push to get Aragorn or GtW, depending on the cards I held and the situation on the board. Like Goodgulf said, if I had Ent cards, Challenge, or Anduril, I'd be sorely tempted. I think I'm still a tad attached to the edge-of-my-seat thrill of risking GtW or Aragorn in battle. I've more than once opted to bring in GtW in Lorien or Rivendell or WR in the midst of a siege, and I'd say he's turned the tide or stalemated the Shadow armies as often as he's gone down fighting. It's nerve-wracking but fun. As was commented earlier in the thread, I'd have to play your proposed variant to get its feel. But before the ideas got too cemented, I wanted to throw in some thoughts of my own elicited by your interesting post.
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Post by deserter on Oct 13, 2007 13:51:07 GMT 1
I think I'm still a tad attached to the edge-of-my-seat thrill of risking GtW or Aragorn in battle. I've more than once opted to bring in GtW in Lorien or Rivendell or WR in the midst of a siege, and I'd say he's turned the tide or stalemated the Shadow armies as often as he's gone down fighting. It's nerve-wracking but fun. I agree. It is fun. But what happens to the nerve-wreckiness when all you have to lose is GtW/Aragorn himself? It makes all the sense to lose them deliberately (to put them into maximum use after getting them into play.) IMO there just has to be something more to lose. Original system is fine otherwise, but it's too steep. Yes, there is some card-driven luck in the game and it's important dynamics. Still, I tend to think that getting Aragorn especially should be otherwise useful also. Is it really worth using two (one if you hold a separator) actions from the FSP just to get one more leadership and CS? (and card effects you may have in your hand.) Sometimes yes, but I feel that sometimes isn't enough. Aragorn should be useful no matter what! Gandalf is different with his abilities. He can effectively stall one Shadow attack and buy just enough time. And it's easier to get him also, he separates freely. The cards are something that you tend to forget in your considerations as they are a tad unpredictable. To conclude the post: - There needs to be a noticable prize just from promoting GtW/A. (With no drawbacks for FSP, because it just doesn't make any sense.) - There needs to be a noticable punishment for losing GtW/A to make them feel exciting. (- This is something that seems to be quite cemented with me.) PS. Hey, thanks for your insight. Your insight must be quite valuable with so high postcount and a playtester tag. Maybe not so much rafamir, he's just an Easterling. (Just joking.) So I feel I'm to reconsider these things.
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Post by mrweasely on Oct 16, 2007 15:47:16 GMT 1
Paying one action die up front to earn half an action die per turn feels about right to me. That's the situation with Gandalf and most variants you'll see.
Paying two action dice up front to earn half an action die per turn is too much to make Aragorn worthwhile in most cases. He costs at least two up front because of the seperation costs. Also, in this context he never produces character dice, does he? Ouch. No, I'd probably keep him in the Fellowship.
In Action Token WOTR TM, he gives up to 1.5 dice per turn early on, transitioning down to ~0.7 as more nations get activated. He stays in the FSP at least half the time, though with the unforgiving hunt pool of vanilla WotR who can blame him?
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