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Post by mrweasely on May 17, 2007 3:01:49 GMT 1
I do think this variant is prolly lopsided for the Free People. Having said that, the game is quite fun, and it generates interesting challenges for Sauron. It suprised me that it was both unbalanced and fun. But then again the basic game is unbalanced and fun too.
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Post by mrweasely on May 17, 2007 4:18:05 GMT 1
- discard character card: take FSP-phase
Hm...if the game is going 15 turns instead of 7, then turn stalls are only half as powerful. Actually less than that, because the Shadow isn't getting a 8:5 action imbalance during that time ... more like 8:6.5. So really turn stalls are one quarter as good. Also, character results are quite often used for attacking with Free armies now, its not like those swords are wasted like they used to be. In the interests of elegance, I think maybe this ability needs to die. It fixes a problem that no longer exists.
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Post by mrweasely on May 17, 2007 16:14:51 GMT 1
I'm coming around to (belatedly) see the advantages to shadow NATs as well. It acts as a break on cheesey FPMV due to terrible die-rolling.
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Post by Goodgulf the Grey on May 17, 2007 17:59:33 GMT 1
If you are using the CAT to separate companions then you must be allowing it as soon as Saruman is mustered. Do you think this is too strong? move all armies w/ companion: This should really be move up to 2 armies containing a companion(s). All could be as many as 7 armies which is way too strong... I personally like the idea of the CAT token only being available when Gollum is the guide for 2 reasons. 1) The FP now has to decide whether he wants to separate many (or all) companions early and get the CAT or move the Fellowship aggressively and take some casualties (after/before) separating companions to get the CAT. 2) It allows for more variety in the games played. Some will use the CAT early, some late, and the Hunt/Military games will change accordingly. I am considering adding the CAT token to Elrond so that their is a counter to Saruman (like you intended) but really only for the expansion (which is in most games I like to play) because then the FP has to choose between Elrond/Galadriel since taking both allows for an early Mouth of Sauron. I really like making the action dice decisions (Balrog, Saruman, both WKs, Grima, Gandalf, Strider/Aragon) interesting and varied. Hopefully the action token ideas will add to those options and not detract. I do plan to test some of these ideas when I find the time.
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Post by mrweasely on May 18, 2007 3:49:04 GMT 1
If you are using the CAT to separate companions then you must be allowing it as soon as Saruman is mustered. Do you think this is too strong? Well, two things: 1) its not too strong. The CAT is basically worthless until there are companions around the map. The CAT helps with seperation, sure, but in the longer games corruption is very tight. If the WK tries at all, its entirely possible that the entire Shadow character deck unloads on the FSP for max damage. So seperation is as dicey as ever, if not more so. 2) What would you think of releasing tokens only during the action die phase, instead of "immediately"? It'd be more like regular dice. It'd make the minion's drawbacks slightly less expensive, and it'd slow the savage Free mustering buildup that happens when Sauron invades & activates a new Free nation. move all armies w/ companion: This should really be move up to 2 armies containing a companion(s). All could be as many as 7 armies which is way too strong... You're probably right, (you usually are), but I was going exactly the other direction with this. Spend the CAT to move or attack with every Free army containing a companion, in the order of the Free People's choosing! I personally like the idea of the CAT token only being available when Gollum is the guide for 2 reasons. 1) The FP now has to decide whether he wants to separate many (or all) companions early and get the CAT or move the Fellowship aggressively and take some casualties (after/before) separating companions to get the CAT. Lets maybe brainstorm some entry conditions for the CAT: - Elrond
- FSP declares in non-Rivendell City/Stronghold
- FSP takes a casualty
- Saruman
- FSP revealed
- Corruption 3 or higher
- WK
- Gollum
- Mirror of Galadriel played
- Elven Rope or Elven Cloaks played
- Shadow @ 9 action dice.
- Mouth of Sauron
- Shadow @ 4 vp
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Veldrin
Lord of the Nazgûl
Posts: 1,305
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Post by Veldrin on May 18, 2007 17:07:16 GMT 1
I think Shadow at 4 VP seems like a good trigger and one the Shadow will have difficulty avoiding.
[glow=green,2,300]Veldrin[/glow]
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Post by Goodgulf the Grey on May 18, 2007 19:43:15 GMT 1
1) The CAT may be "worthless" when Saruman is first mustered but it is a flexible "Character die" once companions are on the map (at it can get companions out each turn). The point is that once I get about 3-4 characters separated then the CAT becomes a very useful tool (maybe more than a NAT). I guess I'm thinking that it would be nice to balance this with the FP "giving up" on the companion absorbtion option and relying on Smeagol (ie once the Fellowship is "broken" then the CAT is available).
2) I like the idea of Action Tokens only being available "at the start of the next turn" so that their effectiveness is slightly reduced and they function like action dice in this regard.
Regarding entry conditions for the CAT...
I definitely like it coming into play when Gollum is the Guide. I also think it should come into effect in at least one other way (maybe more). I like the Mouth of Sauron option too since it is a late game effect.
Adding to your list of CAT entry conditions:
If the Shadow has 0 or 1 Eye in the hunt at the end of a turn
I like this because it adds a drawback to the shadow for not hunting the fellowship (and it gives them the tool to fight against the military). Also, it can be avoided by placing 2 Eyes in the hunt every turn unless there is only 1 companion left. This puts pressure on the SP and the optimal 1st turn placing 1 Eye may not be the best strategy every game...
NATs are lost when a whole nation's settlements are conquered, what about a similar effect on the CAT? I'm thinking that the CAT should stay in play the rest of the game once it is available.
Another ability you could tag onto the CAT in place of Take Them Alive...
Use the CAT to activate a companions special ability (ie the Hobbits, Legolas, Gimli, and Boromir).
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Post by mrweasely on May 18, 2007 22:30:29 GMT 1
I agree that the CAT we're discussing is stronger than any single NAT (especially because the NATs I'm using these days can't attack). To my mind, the point of the CAT is to reward players for dancing around the board with companions. If someone wants to put 7 companions everywhere around the map and do a 7-way army fork, well hey, mission accomplished, and I want to read that session report! There may be a problem with the CAT/NAT combination, that it lets too much power be concentrated by the Free People for defense in a single area in a single turn. Consider, if you will, the following development in the last game I played: FSP sets out from Rivendell, getting hunted. Legolas goes alone to Buckland. He then brings the good book to Ered Luin, getting dwarves to war. Swords in Eriador with the Dwarven NAT. Next, the Dwarves hoist legolas on their shoulders and carry him to the Gray Havens, where he uses the CAT + Prince of Mirkwood to move the elves towards war. Next, he uses FearFirePhones to move to Shire and get the North to war. Over the next few turns he raises a serious [3/3/2] army of Northment, feints to relieve Rivendell, then instead crushes a helpless Mt Gundabad (thank you, combined NAT/CAT movement!). The shadow has lots of Mordor orcs on the table, and can't defend all his strongholds, so he has to spend the next 3 turns grinding down Legolas and the angry hobbits in Gundabad. The fellowship grinds forwards and dunks with 3+ turns to spare. That was one powerful freakin' Legolas. He certainly would have gotten MVP, except Gandalf the Grey made it to Mordor and cycled literally the entire FP character deck. So, yeah, Gandalf was incredibly good too. (Aragorn got crowned, and the FP dice generated plenty of Palantir results). Use the CAT to activate a companions special ability (ie the Hobbits, Legolas, Gimli, and Boromir). heh, I was thinking exactly the same thing. That's elegant because all those are abilities that activate on "any action die".
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Post by mrweasely on May 21, 2007 6:27:39 GMT 1
Just played a game. Sauron won, sorta. FSP was one space away. FP had Moria and Dol Guldur. Sauron got a Military Victory of his own, simultaneously. Currently thinking: - Seperate a group of companions
- Move all companions
- Use any companion special ability requiring "any action die", e.g. Take Them Alive
- Move with armies containing companions
Attack with an army containing a companion (its too flexible)
CAT enters play when Mordor goes to war. (In Twilight this should be some other condition, because there's already good reason to delay Mordor-war in Twilight).
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Post by Goodgulf the Grey on May 21, 2007 15:10:46 GMT 1
I'm surprised at how easily you are achieving FP Military Victory conditions (even with National Action Tokens and Companion Action Tokens). One thing I have noticed in 1.5 games of playtesting is that the SP can reduce/eliminate much/all action token use by placing more Eyes in the hunt. If the FP only has 4 action dice then the tokens are more effective but if the FP has 6 then they are rarely used (SP generally puts 2 in the hunt). Also, the threat of NATs does seem to reduce the early emergence of the Witch King (which does help to balance things a bit). The House Rules I've been using are: National Action Tokens (NATs)Starting with the turn after a free Nation becomes Active, and at the start of every turn thereafter, the Free player obtains the National Action Token for that nation (Dwarves, North, Rohan, Gondor). The Elves, S&E, Isengard, and Sauron start Active and in possession of the controlling player. A National Action Token can be spent much like a FP action die, but only when that player would otherwise be able to Pass. Like the action tokens in the op-games, National Action Tokens are not as strong as action dice. National Action Tokens may be spent to take the following types of actions: - Politics - Roll a die: on a 5 or 6, you may move the nation one step down the political track.
- Move - Move an army with units or leaders of that nation.
This action can only be used once the Nation is At War. - Muster - Muster a regular or leader of that nation.
These actions can only be used when a companion is with an army from a nation that matches their national symbol on the card. (ie Legolas-Elves, Gimli-Dwarves, Boromir/Strider-Gondor, Aragorn/Gandalf/Merry/Pippin-All) - Politics - add 1 to the die roll for Politics regarding that nation
- Counter Attack - Attack a region or stronghold within the borders of the nation.
National Action Tokens are not action dice, therefore they may not be the target of an elven ring, and may not utilize companion special abilities requiring dice (e.g. Prince of Mirkwood, Strider's guide ability). Companion Action Token (CAT)When any of the following conditions are met then the FP may take the CAT and add it to their dice pool to be used for all future turns (similar to NATs). - Gollum is the Guide
- Mouth of Sauron is in play
- If the Shadow has 0 or 1 Eye in the hunt at the end of a turn
The CAT can be spent for the following actions: - Move up to 2 armies containing a companion
- Attack with an army containing a companion
- Move all companions
- Separate a companion or group of companions
- Use a Companion’s special ability
Minion Action Token (MAT)On any turn where the Shadow Player places 3 or more dice in the Hunt Box he may add the MAT to his pool of Action Dice. It is only available for one turn but can be brought into play again if the SP meets the entry conditions for it. The MAT can be spent for the following actions: - Move up to 2 armies containing a Nazgul/Minion
- Attack with an army containing a Nazgul/Minion
- Move all Nazgul/Minions
In addition, I have used my versions of Grima and Elrond although only Elrond showed up in the 1st game and neither in the 2nd. The MAT hasn't been used yet so it is only effective when REALLY rolling too many Eyes. Also, I'm using the companion combat cards without eliminating their leadership (they are MUCH better now). I also don't allow NATs to play strategy cards as this is also too strong for 1/2 action dice abilities (IMHO). The first game ended in a corruption victory and in the 2nd game I sent companions everywhere and just left Gollum as the Guide on turn 1. This had the effect of getting the WK out earlier and a huge group of armies are swarming on Gondor with a massive amount in Moria, Dol Goldur, and Isengard ready to pounce after Gondor falls. The Shadow can quickly muster Isengard and move the N.Dunland regulars to reinforce Moria (usually to take Lorien/Rivendell). The FP haven't had the resources to muster an offensive threat since all their efforts have been to stall/slow down the impact in Gondor. Only Boromir fell in Minas Tirith and almost all of Gondor's units have been mustered. In your games, is the SP only placing 0 or 1 Eye? This type of strategy should change as the FP gets Action Tokens because Eyes used toward the Hunt help reduce the FSP movement and don't generate dice advantage so they reduce the Action Token impact.
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Post by mrweasely on May 21, 2007 15:35:12 GMT 1
I've been allocating 2 eyes except in extreme circumstances, like having to defend from FPMV, or it being turn 1. If I knew the MAT would give me basically an automatic Character die, I'd be willing to put in three eyes all the time.
As free, playing with tokens that allow military attacks, I would not advise going above 4 dice - it cuts down the options too much!
Gandalf the Grey is very good in a game that goes 15 turns and is close militarily. He's more card-cyclely than the WK.
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Post by mrweasely on May 21, 2007 22:29:23 GMT 1
Correction: DEW North can work fine, subject to some conditions: - No Witch King
- Lots of Army moves early
- No F!F!F! or Mazarbul luck for Free
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Post by mrweasely on Jun 20, 2007 16:46:01 GMT 1
Here's what I'm playing with now. I'm finding it fairly balanced:
National Action Tokens that enter the turn after activation for all 5 free and all 3 Shadow nations. They can't be used for attacks, but can be used to play cards.
Companion Action Token that enters play the turn after Mordor goes to war. It can move all companions or seperate a group of companions or Take Them Alive. That's all!
I discarded the changes to the companion combat cards - they confused people and had little effect on balance.
Free can play action tokens only if they have fewer dice (the way it always was). Shadow can play action tokens if they have equal or fewer dice (since Free got to go first).
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Post by mrweasely on Jun 24, 2007 18:08:50 GMT 1
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