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Post by mrweasely on Nov 12, 2007 21:33:13 GMT 1
The rules used in the tournament are here: boardgamegeek.com/article/1678741 , look under the "Rules" section. Most people also make a handshake agreement to use the less lame but unofficial "Servant of the Secret Fire" wording.
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Post by kwojtasz on Nov 12, 2007 22:04:36 GMT 1
The online tournament rules are as above. I am working on a convention tournament rule set. Basically similar style as we used in the past, namely:
1. Die roll, odd/even. Winner gets to bid first.
2. Bid X for what side you want. (I'm leaning toward the Dwarven re-rolls as bid amounts) So the winner of the roll could bid, "I'll play the SP giving 0 re-rolls to the FP". The next person then could agree that works and you begin play, or up the bids, saying "I'll play the SP giving 1 re-roll to the FP". At some point the amount of re-rolls will look to good to be true for one of the players who will agree at that point to take the FP with X re-rolls.
3. Once the sides are determined, start the game.
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Post by kwojtasz on Nov 12, 2007 22:07:10 GMT 1
at the WBC tournament, we used to bid corruption points, but that turned out to cookie-cutter the games into SP blitz's and FP sprints... 60-90 minutes and done. Pretty much the winner was the one that got the better action dice rolls, and with the FP not having as many, they lost more often than not no matter the corruption bid. (it was getting to 15-16+ corruption given to the FP instead of the normal 12)
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Post by magicgeek on Nov 13, 2007 2:59:00 GMT 1
The online rules canon needs a couple more to do with the rolling of Action Dice.
* If the wrong number of Action Dice are rolled, ALL dice must be rerolled.
* If the Free roll Action Dice before the Shadow has rolled and before the number of Eyes being allocated is declared, then the Free must reroll all dice.
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Post by mrweasely on Nov 13, 2007 6:03:53 GMT 1
Good point, and I agree. Also, I think that generalizes to all dice, not just action dice. Rewind the game to the point of the mistake, and start again with all new randomness.
If information exchange has happened (e.g. I now KNOW you have Deadly Strife), that's a thorny issue.
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SevenSpirits
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Sauron meant no harm. He only wanted to draw the extra cards...
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Post by SevenSpirits on Nov 13, 2007 6:46:43 GMT 1
* If the wrong number of Action Dice are rolled, ALL dice must be rerolled. Slow down. If one player does not roll all their action dice, THAT PLAYER should reroll all of them. This is because it can get pretty confusing otherwise, and it's hard to take advantage of because it's pretty obvious when the number of dice rolled is wrong. But you should not roll all dice, because then the Free could respond to a powerful Shadow roll by making a "mistake". You probably didn't mean this, but there is a real danger that players could interpret it that way. Now about MrWeasely's "this should apply to all dice rolls". I think this is wrong. Imagine I roll three dice when I had 3 Orcs + Balrog, and get 666. Then I realize I should have rolled 5. But imagine I don't have my normal scruples, so I don't say anything. I basically just got free hits by not noticing my own mistake. And if I had rolled 122 instead, I could have said "oops, I guess I need to reroll all of them beause I need to roll 5!" You put me in a situation where "accidentally" rolling the wrong number of dice can give me an advantage if I get a good roll on the illegal dice and my opponent doesn't notice. And there is no downside because it's not a hard mistake to make. It's basically impossible to get caught with this kind of cheating. These kind of situations should be avoided as much as possible. The "roll too few dice" situation is easily remedied by rolling additional dice instead of rerolling. This makes it so the only person who could gain an advantage from the mistake is the opponent. That's still too bad if they pretend not to notice, but at least the person who made the mistake is the one being hurt. It's a much more reasonable situation than the one where you reward making mistakes. Now, there are other problems which this policy doesn't fix. For example, rolling too many dice. If you want to prevent that with the "too many dice" situation, you have to randomly remove dice, but that gets kind of clumsy. I think the way to go is, if you roll too few dice, just roll additional ones, and if you roll too many, reroll all of them.
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Post by mrweasely on Nov 13, 2007 22:59:13 GMT 1
Right.
The most common case is the Shadow rolling 5d6 against Daylight.
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Post by kwojtasz on Nov 14, 2007 0:03:32 GMT 1
also with re-roll all of them you might want to include not being able to have more hits than the original roll... or just leave it with the result of the correct amount of dice reroll.
pretty much something does need to be agreed upon as a convention, so long as 7S's observations are taken into account so no cheating is possible. or at the very least, both players just agree on them at the start of the game.
having some extra written steps with the online version is usually what I see happening. SP asks any declaring?, FP asks, any eye allocations?, then FP rolls action dice, then SP rolls, then FP is up to pass or do an action first.
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Post by magicgeek on Nov 14, 2007 2:41:52 GMT 1
Amazing how easily simple words can be so mistaken. If I roll 7 red dice, and you roll 3 blue dice, "* If the wrong number of Action Dice are rolled, ALL dice must be rerolled." means you pick up 4 blue dice and roll them. The right number of Red Dice were rolled, so they sit still. I am impressed anyone could get to the entirely English Language Possible outcome of you rolled 7 musters on the first turn so I am rolling 5 dice to make you pick them up. The reason the ALL is there is to encompass the missing dice, and the incorrectly rolled dice. Not to include the correctly rolled and different coloured dice. Combat dice are largely irrelevent in comparisom to the Action Dice. And do you guys believe Free should be forced to reroll? (if rolled before Eye declaration) The most commonly incorrect number of dice for me is when a Minion dies. Sometimes when Sudden strike gets in the way too. Underrolling and expecting a better result is an impressive and desperate attempt.
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SevenSpirits
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PlayTester
Sauron meant no harm. He only wanted to draw the extra cards...
Posts: 283
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Post by SevenSpirits on Nov 14, 2007 8:58:30 GMT 1
also with re-roll all of them you might want to include not being able to have more hits than the original roll... or just leave it with the result of the correct amount of dice reroll. pretty much something does need to be agreed upon as a convention, so long as 7S's observations are taken into account so no cheating is possible. or at the very least, both players just agree on them at the start of the game. having some extra written steps with the online version is usually what I see happening. SP asks any declaring?, FP asks, any eye allocations?, then FP rolls action dice, then SP rolls, then FP is up to pass or do an action first. The easiest way to run the beginning of the turn is like this: FP 1) Discard cards if necessary and wait for opponent to discard cards if necessary. SA 1) Discard cards if necessary, then wait for opponent to say "OK". FP 2) If you want to, declare the Fellowship and/or change the guide. Then say "OK" and wait for opponent to roll dice. SA 2) Allocate as many eyes as you want, then roll remaining dice. Wait for your turn. FP 3) Roll your dice and take your first turn... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ About resolving rules mistakes: In my opinion, the overriding implicit rule is this: If player A makes a mistake, the solution should be player A's choice of either 1) A solution suggested by player A that IN NO WAY could favor player A, or 2) A solution suggested by player B. For example, I am the FP and I roll dice before the Shadow. The following are possible options that I could suggest: 1) I get no action dice this turn. 2) My opponent gets to choose whether I should reroll them or not. I could not suggest these options: 3) Reroll them. 4) Keep the result, and allow the Shadow to make allocation decisions based on it. You might think 4) is a reasonable solution, because it gives them an advantage. But it's definitely not! This is because I am making the suggestion after having seen the roll. Maybe I like the roll. If I choose this, I could have chosen some other option involving a reroll. It is however fair for my opponent to suggest it, and in this case, that is actually equivalent to option 2). Here's another example. Say I play A Power Too Great with a muster die (and it's my only die). Before the other player takes their turn, they notice this and point it out. It is perfectly reasonable for me to suggest that I put it back in my hand and do something else instead, because the net effect is that my opponent knows a card in my hand. But now, what if my opponent first reacted by saying "dang it, that screws up my Grond plan!" and only then noticed the mistake. Now the take-back doesn't work any more, because I gained free information. In this case, I as the FP would find it impossible to come up with a solution that is in no way to my benefit. The reason is that I have gained information before coming up with a solution. The only option here is for the opponent to decide what to do. One option is to force me to play it with an Elven Ring. Another is to try to punish me by allowing my opponent to choose the use of my die, or to discard A Power Too Great from my hand. The important thing is that we only choose something my opponent is OK with. (If they are nice and just let it slide, that's perfectly fine too!) If they can't come up with anything I can agree too, then that is when we need to call a referee. This is if you didn't agree to anything beforehand, which is also fine. I think there are only a few things that are worth making everyone agree to implicitly. Those are the policies for what to do when you roll too few or too many combat dice.
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SevenSpirits
Nazgûl
PlayTester
Sauron meant no harm. He only wanted to draw the extra cards...
Posts: 283
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Post by SevenSpirits on Nov 14, 2007 9:02:34 GMT 1
And do you guys believe Free should be forced to reroll? (if rolled before Eye declaration) If I was Shadow, I would personally try not to pay attention to the FP roll, and only look after allocating eyes. If I was FP, I would say "oops, do you want me to reroll?" I think it's not very useful to have universal rules for this because it's not a very big deal and it's not hard to resolve. We have enough rules that not everyone knows about already.
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Post by perry on Nov 14, 2007 12:42:35 GMT 1
The rules used in the tournament are here: boardgamegeek.com/article/1678741 , look under the "Rules" section. Most people also make a handshake agreement to use the less lame but unofficial "Servant of the Secret Fire" wording. ' Hey Mrweasly There were no bid rules mentioned in that article? Did you play the games w/o bids? BTW: I agree with what you say about rules & Tournament plays. WOTR is not really well suited to tournament play, with all the irregularities & ambigiuty (sp?) that the rules contain. Cheers
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Post by mrweasely on Nov 14, 2007 17:53:39 GMT 1
Hey Mrweasly There were no bid rules mentioned in that article? Did you play the games w/o bids? Correct, there were no bids. Participants played an even number of games, half Shadow, half Free. I think everyone was surprised at how well the Free People did, especially in Round 2, where they won 60% of their games.
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Post by kwojtasz on Dec 15, 2007 15:44:21 GMT 1
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