Scouts out of Siege

[Goodgulf the Grey]

Sometimes it can help the FP to save units in a Stronghold that is "going to fall" by attacking and playing "Scouts" to retreat to an adjacent region.

Particularly useful with small Woodland Realm force (after SP builds a Siege Engine or two... then retreat to Dale and reinforce Erebor with the Elves before the SP army in Woodland Realm can get there! Also helpful to save Aragorn or Gandalf the White if they can retreat somewhere that SP doesn't want to attack immediately...

This is dangerous because if SP has Swarm of Bats then FP army is going down...or if SP wants to spend a die and hunt them down on the next move...

[Krieghund]

That doesn't seem like it should be legal. Retreating is normally only an option for the defending Army. The attacking Army simply has the option to cease the attack without moving. Of course, the card itself may override this...

[Goodgulf the Grey]

Thematically, it doesn't make much sense and it wouldn't be used in most situations, but I think it is legal.

I haven't ever done this but the thought crossed my mind recently...

[SevenSpirits]

I would also think it's not legal.

[Goodgulf the Grey]

I can understand the logic that the "attacker" shouldn't be able to "retreat" so maybe it is illegal. However, the cards usually override the rules so I'm not sure.

Veldrin - Can you get an official answer on this?

[kwojtasz]

you can't use scouts to retreat once you have been seiged.

if you do an attack out of the seige to break it and after the first combat round stop... where you end up (back in the seige or an adjacent area) is a good question though. it might be in the rules, though I don't have them in front of me at the moment.

[Krieghund]

If you do a sortie and cease attacking, you return to the Stronghold.

[magicgeek]

A beseiged army cannot "scouts"

A besiged army returns to the stronghold box if it fails to win a sortie.

[Veldrin]

If you sally forth from a siege and play "Scouts" you will retreat back into the Stronghold. Not the best use of the card...


[glow=green,2,300]Veldrin[/glow]

[Goodgulf the Grey]

Thanks all.

That makes sense.

[mrweasely]

Update: this post talks about playing Scouts in response to the Shadow attack that customarily is greeted by retreating into siege. As such it is definately a legal play.

I think Scoutsing out of Wooden Realm when its being put under siege is an interesting move, though. The next Free move can take the elves to Erebor, and basically potentially put the dwarves out of the game until The Good Book shows.

Scoutsing out of Erebor to Wooden Realm is even better. For one thing its not too hard to arrange to get the Iron Hills dwarf on board too. For another, you get the dwarves to war maybe a die earlier than Sauron expected, which can be handy if Havens are threatened.

[SevenSpirits]

Looking at the rules, I do not see how an attacking army could ever retreat. It's simply not defined what that would mean. For example, would the army go to a region adjacent to the battle (the defender's region) thus allowing them to basically teleport through the defending army? Or would they retreat to a region adjacent to their region of origin, thus allowing you to attack Parth Celebrant to get to Anorien? If I attack a region containing a stronghold and they fight a field battle, couldn't I then Scouts into the stronghold box? It makes no sense with the current rules and the card does not tell you what to do.

Further, the rules would actually break if you did this:

"END OF BATTLE
A battle ends when the attacker ceases to fight, the defender retreats, or when one or both Armies are completely eliminated"

Two last points:
1) The card "Scouts" does not explicitly say that the army can retreat even if it is attacking. The rule of cards overriding the rules only applies when the card actually says it overrides the rules. (Or the rules say that the card does, as is the case with cards that muster units into besieged not-at-war strongholds.)

2) It's called "Scouts". The idea is that you have advance warning you are being attacked. It is not nearly as useful to have advance warning that you are attacking them.

Veldrin, I think it's wrong that you would get a free cease of attack if you sally from a stronghold and play Scouts. Why do you think that you do?

[Krieghund]

I think Veldrin was just being a bit flippant. If you were to play Scouts as the attacker under the conditions he outlines above, you would waste the card, as well as the action die you used to initiate the battle. If effect, you would stop your own attack before it started, resulting in no action. In other words, you just can't play the card unless you're the defender.

[SevenSpirits]

Nonono, you missed the part where you trick your opponent into playing a card, so it's not the same as no action.

[rafamir]

1. Per Veldrin, a sortie using Scouts lands you back in the Stronghold. And I agree with SevenSpirits that retreat is an option normally reserved for the defender in a battle, not the attacker. If an attacking FP army plays Scouts, the combat card text should be understood to mean that the FP army 'retreats from the battle' before the Combat Roll, but not to an adjacent region. I think that would keep the spirit of the combat rules.

2. Has anyone considered that the Defender's combat card takes precedence over the Attacker's, so near Moria or against Dunlendings, it may be risky for an attacking FP army to play Scouts? The problem arises if Shadow plays Old Hatred or Durin's Bane, giving Shadow forces a pre-combat roll attack that would arguably take precedence over the FP army's Scouts-ing away...

3. Thematically speaking, offensive use of Scouts could be interpreted as a feint, though I think it's a stretch to imagine a feint credible enough to warrant the loss of a Shadow combat card.