War of the ring, I resign

[tempus]

It very sad to lose hope on a game when you had high expectations. Somehow I liked this game: good materials, fantatstic atmosphere, but after 10 games I have to say that it is drastically umbalanced. We are a group of 6 players, and tested this game (2 players version) 10 times. Every single game has been won by the Shadow. Notice that we exchanged places, sometimes playing with the free people, sometimes with the Shadow, so to try the our abilities with both factions. Well the result is that now we belive that the FP can win only if the Shadow player constantly makes serious mistakes and luck favours a lot the FP. Sadly this never happened for us.
A slightliy unbalanced game can be interesting: a victory for the FP could appear very epic, acording with the theme of the game. But a totally unbalanced game is only frustrating. And this is what we are experiencing now: total frustration for a game so fascinating.
Perhaps playing against a 10 year old player could give the edge to the FP, but against a moderate ability player it is simply an exercise of luck. But you do not need a small amount of luck, you need a huge amount. You must win key battles, often played at disadvantage for FP, and hope to keep the Fellowship safe to destroy the ring. If you have no constant luck, simpy you cannot win if your opponent does not make mistakes.
There is no way a good FP strategy can win alone and overcome bad luck if both player have the same lever of ability.
This is so sad because I liked this game. Somehow I still like it for the atmosphere, but I cannot forget the frustration of fighting a battle you cannot win, or simply win becouse you've been lucky. And moreover this "luck" never happened in 10 games.

[Ingwe]

Tempus,

I dont really understand what you re saying. We ve played already 7 games and the score is now 4-3 for the FP. We re not 10 year olds but quite experienced gamers. All the victories have been achieved through the destruction of the ring or the corruption of the fellowship.


So give it another try, change your tactics drastically and havefun.

Grtz

[Krieghund]

Welcome, Tempus!

I am sorry to hear that you are dissatisfied. My group are also experienced gamers, and our experience is similar to Ingwe's. Perhaps you can share some of your strategies with the folks here, and we can help you out. Or maybe you've thought of something we haven't.

BTW, a while back someone else made a post similar to yours, but saying that the Shadow could never win. To me, whenever you've got people claiming the game is unbalanced toward both sides, it's a good indication that the game is balanced.

Please let us help.

[rodric]

I've played this game about 30 times and i have to say that the game is a bit unbalanced. When I am the Shadow Player, i almost always take the DEW line plus Gondor, and i win almost every time (except when the other one is really lucky). I've also played with the FP and won a few times by really defending the DEW line and Gondor. But you always have tot have a lot of luck with the fellowship, and sometimes that's quite frustrating. That's the only thing i dislike about the game, that sometimes you've been playing for 4 hours and then all is decided on which tile you draw from the hunting pool. I would also like to know which strategy you guys use. I think the Shadow player wins about 7 games out of 10, so maybe if you play another 10 games

[Krieghund]

Welcome, Rodric!

What is Rohan doing while the Shadow is attacking the DEW line and Gondor?

On the subject of losing (or winning) the game because of a lucky Hunt tile draw, to me that's one of the great things about the game. It ain't over 'til it's over! No matter how badly you're being beaten in one aspect of the game, you might be able to pull it out in another.

[rodric]

Rohan always builds quite a big army at Edoras, but I always build an army of 5 elites and some normal and I besiege Helmsdeep with it, without attacking it, so if the FP tries to do something with his army, I can counter him. What you're saying is true on one hand, but on the other hand, it quite frustrating if you didn't make any mistake whole game long and still lose. Also, I don't like winning if I make some mistakes and eventually win by having luck. I really prefer to win with the SP with a military victory.
Btw,what are your preferred tactics with the SP, because, although it's a bit boring to always win with te same tactic, I don't think I've lost more than 1 or 2 times with the tactic of DEW line and Gondor. Do you think there are other good objectives for the SP?

[Krieghund]

One thing the FP can do with a large Rohan army is either hassle Isengard or move some troops toward Gondor to reinforce it. Anything they can do to slow the Shadow contributes to a Ring Victory, which is the best way for the FP to win. Effective use of the Companions, both in and out of the Fellowship, is also important. They can add a lot of punch to FP armies.

As the Shadow, I have had success with attacking Rohan early while moving into position to attack Gondor later. Lorien can also be a good target, and it has the added benefit of removing a Fellowship rest stop. A lot depends on which Event cards you get early in the game, as well as which cards your opponent gets.

Veldrin has written a few quite good strategy articles over at the Fantasy Flight web site. They're worth a look:
www.fantasyflightgames.com/lotrwar.html

[madwoffen]

That is weird, we always felt this game slightly unbalanced for the FP. I'm not a newbie, neither my partner who is a wargammer since the early 80's. We tried a lot of combinations with bluff moves, counter-attack, etc,...so far for us, the goal is for the FP to gain time and/or to make bold moves (with the FSP) to arrive as quick as possible in the Morgoth path, playing cynically (sacrifying your characters), etc,...we just concluded it was more easy for the FP to win (with the ring of course).
Reading you, the first question that comes in mind is: are you sure you are fully applying all the rules ? Haven't you missed something ? Have you read all the FAQ and rules cjanges ?

[phaedrus]

Something that I mentioned in another post applies here, I think: the surest path to defeat is to fixate on a particular strategy and not take advantage of the events that occur in the game. Things happen that can drastically shift the balance of the game towards one side or the other, but only if you have the flexibility to take advantage of them. As they say, any time one door closes, another opens. If your plan of attack isn't working out, you need to think of something else. There are always opportunities somewhere; the trick is identifying them and and then taking advantage of them.

One aspect of the game that I think is overlooked is the psychological one. In many ways, the game reminds me of poker, in the sense that what you can make the other player believe is often more important than what you actually have. It's possible to slow the shadow player down if you can make him believe that you are going to attempt a military victory, even if you know that you can't really pull it off. Build up your forces in places where the SP army is thinnest, and he either has to play more cautiously, or he actually gives you the chance to take a shadow stronghold. Remember, the FP only needs 4 VP, so the shadow player has to be very careful not to leave too many openings. Trying to cover all the bases takes a lot of resources, and can give the FP player that extra time he needs to deliver the ring.

Tempus, if the shadow player is winning too often for your tastes, you need to do something to shake him up. Force him to slow down his military campaign by identifying weaknesses in his position and attacking him there. Even a feint towards an undefended shadow stronghold can be enough to create panic in a shadow player, and force him to spend precious resources protecting his assets. And remember that if the shadow player is devoting all his resources towards his military campaign, he makes it easier to move the fellowship. Moving several times each turn can put the fellowship disturbingly close to Mordor, allowing you an easy victory by destruction of the ring, or forcing the SP to divert resources away from his military plans in attempt to slow down the fellowship. Balance is key.

[mrweasely]

The original poster is, in my opinion correct that the game is horribly unbalanced. Also, it is easier for wargamers to pick up the Shadow than the Free People.

But 10-0 is a bit too high.

In addition to checking the rules, have you got the basic strategies down:

1) Try to get up to 5 dice by turns 2-3 by moving aggressively with the fellowship until Gandalf the Grey dies, then hoping for a Will of the West to bring him back.
2) If it only costs you 2-3 dice, getting Aragorn is a good deal, since he also provides a sizable combat advantage in Gondor.
3) Otherwise, companions are only to seperate if it costs the SP a siege they might otherwise have won.
4) That brings up the general principle, of it not being worth defending hopelessly outmatched strongholds. Only bother to reinforce if you have a chance.
5) Minas Tirith should be able to reinforce to 3 regulars, 2 elites, and a leader (at least) before being put under siege. Do this by musering a peaceful gondor Once, then getting to war when they attack in Osgiliath, then mustering the elite.


here's an example of how to break a siege:
The fellowship declares in Parth Celebrant, east of the Misty Mountains. Sauron comes storming into Gondor with 11 hit points of orc. As above, Gondor gets its second elite. The Witch King pounds Minas Tirith, but results are inconclusive. FP uses We Prove the Swifter to seperate Strider and Boromir into MT, then plays House of the Stewards or Guards of the Citadel or The Grey Company. The Witch King now has only a 11:9 hit point advantage, and needs 6s to hit, he has to pause to bring reinforcements from Harad or Mordor. Even with another 10 hit points, it's far from a clear win for the Shadow. FP will have a lot of time to draw those other reinforcer cards. FP can try to build up a relief force in Pelargir or Lamedon (or Rohan) and threaten Help Unlooked For. All this takes time, and Aragorn is generating an action die all that time, and the Witch King is busy all that time. That's time the FSP can use.

[sam gamgee]

Hi - I have to agree with Mr. Weasely and the thread starter. Beautiful game, but unbalanced. I have high hopes for the expansion though.

We have played 8 times so far (not bad, given how long it can take to play) and have 2 FP & 6 SP victories. One of the FP victories was a military one based on really bad tactical play by the SP (me - I went for the North to crush the elves & got outflanked by a Gondor host that took Umbar - oops ). The 2nd FP victory was more how the game is 'supposed' to play, the shadow player devoted a lot of dice to the hunt and wasn't very successful, giving the FP just enough time to defend himself and move the ring to mordor. We also had to SP victories on corruption that were very close as well.

After our fourth game though, we seem to have hit on a strat that is pretty much unstoppable. The SP just uses all of his dice (except the one he has to devote to the hunt) to militarily dominate the FP. The FP has to react with tactical play or else he loses - unless he is lucky enough to have the right cards at the right time. Because the shadow minimize the hunt aspect, he has way more dice to move his armies and cycle his card decks, the FP player just can't keep up (even with Aragorn and Gandalf - the SP still maintains a dice advantage b/ of Saru, & the WK). Finally, if the FP player gets a crap hand to start (eg, no Ents & no useful musters in the first few pulls or Blade of Westernesse at the bottom of the deck) he is really finished.

Anyways, I'm not through with the game or ready to give up - but my group has found it a frustrating experience for the FP player overall. I picked up the expansion which seems to address some issues, an extra dice for the FP player early on, and beefed up Ents.

I am headed to strategies section to see if maybe we've missed something... and I still have the expansion to try! Cheers.

[Veldrin]

Welcome to the board samgamgee,

I believe you will find that the expansion will even out the game. Over at BGG some even think it is now in favor of the FP, but I think the Shadow players just have to find a new strategy to win militarily before Frodo dunks the Ring.

After the playtesting I thought that it was still slightly easier for the Shadow but now, after even more play I hope (and think) that that the balance is about right. One thing to keep in mind when playing with the expansion is that the Shadow need to use all the tricks in the book.

[glow=green,2,300]Veldrin[/glow]

[sam gamgee]

Thanks for welcome, Veldrin. It's nice to see that some people are finding it to easy for the FP! I was beginning to give up hope. Already found a couple of things that I hadn't considered on the boards and the FFG home page. We're gaming tonight so I'll let you know! Cheers ;D

[Veldrin]

Yeah, the articles over at FFG are a good way to get familiar with the "main" strategies.

After all, I wrote them. ;D

[glow=green,2,300]Veldrin[/glow]

[trogdor]

It's funny how tempus made that one post and that's all... he didn't attempt to have a conversation and try to understand the game better. Nope, it was just "Ring and Run" for tempus.