Best objectives for Shadow

[stevehope]

Whoops, I hit the wrong button and froze the poll...

I have seen several people elsewhere on the net advocating either a "blitz Gondor" strategy or an "ignore Gondor" strategy, so I thought I'd poll people and see what they thought were the easiest VP objectives for the Shadow to take, on average (knowing that cards and FP play can change things).

I'd vote for the 4 Elven strongholds and MT as being easiest to take, because you only have to face the small mustering power of the Elves and you have more than adequate troops to take MT without any mustering in the area.

[Veldrin]

You forgot my favourite:

The DEW-line (5VPs)

The Shire and the Grey Havens (3VPs)

One more of the Elven Strongholds (2VPs)

[glow=green,2,300]Veldrin[/glow]

[andypalmer]

I prefer Gondor/Rohan since you can:
1) Prevent Aragorn from every appearing (thereby limiting the FP to 5 dice)
2) Remove safe areas from the FSP after Lorien.

[stevehope]

Veldrin,

It's not so much that I forgot that option as it is that I hit the wrong buttons while setting up the poll and launched it too early!

I also voted wrong by accident, but that's not as frustrating for me (I know what **I** think!).

[WilloftheWest]

I think Rohan/Gondor should not be targets for the SA in the early gonig, for a few reasons.

First, the SA needs to focus on taking Lorien as early as possible. Putting pressure on Lorien makes the FP muster Elven elite into Lorien, and likely the Woodland Realm as well. This will help set up an attack on Gondor and The Grey Havens, who will be unable to muster defenses or offer units to Cirdan to take south.

Second, to overrun Rohan, the SA must bring Saruman into play. This can backfire, since Gandalf the White usually follows on Saruman's heels, since once Saruman is in play, the FP will move the Fellowship as often as possible each turn until a succesful hunt kills Gandalf. Gandalf's sudden resurrection in a beseiged Lorien can really turn the tide there, so attacking Rohan is somwehat counterproductive too early.

Third, early attacks on Rohan and Gondor tend to save the dice of the FP, who do not need to spend musters on Gondor and Rohan to move them down the political track if the SA attacks early. Rohan and Gondor are also the best sources of troops for the FP, and both can muster sizeable armies that can do serious damage. Additionally, the earlier the SA attacks Gondor, the ealier it is vulnerable to powerful cards like the Dead Men of Dunharrow, and the more it encourages the crowning of Aragorn. Heavy mustering early in Rohan can leave Saruman vulnerable to the Ents too.

Instead, early Shadow objectives should be as follows: An Easterling attack on Dale, coupled with a strike at Lorien. Forces from Orthanc and its outlying muster points should move on Bree and the Shire, and forces from Mt. Gundabad (or, if Lorien falls early, from Dol Guldor) shoudl take Carrock and threaten the Woodland Realm. Done properly, the SA can almost completely prevent any mustering from the Men of the North, and force the FP to choose two of the remaining three Elven strongholds to defend. If the FP fails to mobilize the Dwarves to war, Erebor is a legitimate target, but the Orthanc forces moving west to the Shire and the Grey Havens are crucial to this strategy, since the FP must spend action dice collecting its scattered forces and musteing three different nations to war to effectively repel this challenge. The SA should be able to gather six victory points from the north: Lorien (2), Dale (1), the Shire (1), and one more Elven stronghold.

Once this work is near completion, the Southrons can march on Pelargir and its victory point, and Saruman can enter play and send his forces to take Edoras. At this point, a succesful seige on either Dol Amoroth (which will not be reinforced by Cirdan's ships) or Helm's Deep will result in victory. Leaving Minas Tirith at your back is always risky though, so make sure that you put Minas Tirith in seige, hopefully with either Gandalf or Aragorn trapped inside.

Note that a main benefit of this strategy is that it's city-heavy. Four of 10 VPs are earned at cities (Shire, Dale, Pelargir, Edoras), and of those cities, two are nearly undefended (Dale and the Shire).

-Will

[Alexfrog]

I cast my vote for something similar to #2.

Dale/Erebor/Woodland Realm can be a good way to get 5 points, as its hard to defend. However, after hitting lorien, the elves get to war, so mustering elites into woodland realm is possible. I'd think that if you were going to attack both, besiege both, then conquer one than the other.

This means the elves dont go to war early enough to muster in either location, unless they use a couple musters to push them down the track.


As for other points, Minas Tirith should be attacked imo, because your army is so close to it at start. Pelargir is also easy to take. Dol Amroth is a possibility, unless they defend it heavily (once you start hitting minas tirith to push them to war).

As to Rohan, I'd build up an army with saruman that COULD take it, and see what light does. If they spend a lot of effort to defend rohan, you move the isengard army to riven dell or shire/grey havens. If they dont spend much effort in rohan, you hit it.

In general, I'd have primary targets as I listed (Minas Tirith/Pelargir, Helms Deep/Edoras, The northern cities, Lorien). Then, if something gets defended heavily (requiring a lot of effort), you shift elsewhere, like from Rohan to rivendell, or from somewhere to Dol Amroth, or whatever...

[Alexfrog]

Also, I think its a mistake for the dark player to not immediately muster one of saruman/witch king, and then followed soon after by the other. It forces the light side to get gandalf the white to keep up with you, meaning he isnt in the fellowship, and maybe you didnt give the light player time to make effective use of gandalf's death (i.e taking the hit for a big hunt tile).

The witch king is better than gandalf the white (obviously, you dont put him in the same place gandalf is). The witch king is the best thing on the entire board, it has infinite movement, 2 leadership, and most importantly, the ability to let you keep playing combat cards, 1 per battle, and draw replacements!

Dark getting Witch king and light getting gandalf the white, versus neither being in play, is an advantage FOR DARK. And when you are bringing out one minion, you should bring out the other too, because only one must be out for gandalf to enter play. Remeber, gandalf the white in play means gandalf the grey isnt leading the fellowship, giving THEM more cards...

Gandalf can only defend one location from the nazgul grouped assault. You can easily move them to a different location where he isnt.

[andypalmer]

Bring in the Witch King and Saruman as fast as you can - they get you more dice. More dice = more actions.

Attack Gondor and Rohan. They are the 8 points that are closest (i.e. fewest dice required) to your Sauron and Saruman forces (which are at war - see above). Faster you attack, the lighter they'll be defended. Your Nazgul are already concentrated in the south and your Saruman Elites are all leaders.

For the last two points, go for either Lorien or Woodland Realm. They are equidistant to your force in Dol Guldur.

[Alexfrog]

Yeah...the southrons need somewhere to hit too, and the best seems to be Pelargir then Dol Amroth. Probably with support from the sauron forces and nazgul for Dol Amroth, after MT falls.

With Saruman's forces, I'd plan to hit Rohan for those 3 pts. BUT, if the light side manages to muster a low there and is defending it well, then instead, you hit Rivendell.

Dol Guldar hits one of the elves places as you suggest. If you go north, there is the advantage that you can take Dale as well for 1 more point, which you need if you dont hit Edoras. Also, Erebor in the north can probably be taken by the easterlings as a backup.

[andypalmer]

Regarding Southrons and Easterlings: I've actually won half my games without the Southrons and Easterlings even being at war. Even when I used them, it was only late game or Corsairs of Umbar. I always found better uses for those two Muster dice.

[Alexfrog]

Interesting. We generally play 4 player, so they seem like a big deal to the guy who is them and Saruman.

Though I guess even then, you could just use Saruman a lot...

Generally, the big thing the easterlings do is use a muster card to get 5 armies in the east, then go take Erebor and Dale and maybe woodland realm.

Also, the southrons can be of help taking gondor (Pelargir/Dol Amroth).

[GoldenHobbit]

I've only played the FP, but the SP has lost every time primarily because he IGNORED Gondor and focused on the Northern strongholds. The one game he scared me was when he made a fast attack on Rohan via Helm's deep, capturing it by turn 2, but then he again focused on the North. I saw it coming and was able to muster and recruit to those nations before he arrived.

It just seems to me (and him) that most of those Southern troops the SP starts with get wasted if you don't use them on Gondor.

-Rich

[nigel]

GoldenHobbit said:

I've only played the FP, but the SP has lost every time primarily because he IGNORED Gondor and focused on the Northern strongholds. The one game he scared me was when he made a fast attack on Rohan via Helm's deep, capturing it by turn 2, but then he again focused on the North. I saw it coming and was able to muster and recruit to those nations before he arrived.

It just seems to me (and him) that most of those Southern troops the SP starts with get wasted if you don't use them on Gondor.

-Rich

It's possible to use the units in Morannon elsewhere - I often march them into Dagorlad and then up to Dol Guldur when I have 'spare' army movement, you can always switch them over to hit Rohan on the way if that's more useful. But yep the Southrons aren't much use apart from an attack on Gondor (especially using the Corsairs). Sometimes I'll move the Near Harad army to Umbar to 'threaten' a corsairs - which can be enough to trick my opponent into 'wasting' dice on Gondor when I don't intend to attack. You can also grab just Pelegir for the final 1VP you need for victory at the end and ignore the strongholds in Gondor.

I think it depends on what cards you draw fairly early on - get Denethor's Folly or Corsairs or Horde from the East etc, and then an attack on Gondor looks very good.

Nigel

[andypalmer]

Nigel. IMO, an attack on Gondor looks good regardless. You've got 1 Elite and 19 Regulars within 4 moves of Osgilliath (not to mention the 3 Nazgul). Going after the DEW line with the Easterlings, you start with only 1 Elite and 5 Regulars (and have to use a character die to get any Nazgul up there). No matter the cards you start with, you aren't going to make up 14 Regulars.

[Alexfrog]

My dentancy is to not plan to take certain areas ahead of time, but rather to attack opportunistically, going where they havent managed to defend, and where I can get troops effieciently.

For example, last night I had:

Minas Tirith, Pelargir Dol Amroth (5 in gondor)
Edoras (most of the minas tirith force was left to go here, but my opponent strongly mustered at Helms Deep) (1 in rohan)
Lorien (combined armies from Dol Guldur plus some musters in Moria) (2 from elves)
Dale (they were mustering erebor and woodland realms, so my attack could only take this, but the musters there left other places open)

THat left 1 point left to take, and various ways to take it. The army that took lorien couldve gather a bit of reinforcements and hit rivendell or woodland realm. I mightve had a chance at erebor. What I did in the game was take an army from Isengard west at the shire, since it was wide open and easy, and I had some spare moves. Had I needed 2 more, grey harbor wouldve been easy, in 3-4 more moves.