|
Post by pabraham on Oct 16, 2004 4:54:36 GMT 1
Also posted on boardgamegeek:
The situation looks grim for the men of Gondor. Aragorn leads a single regular unit, besieged in Minas Tirath by a million billion orcs. Soon, they will attack and the FP player will lose not only the stronghold but also Aragorn's extra die. The FP player uses an army die to activate the small force for a sortie, but attacks with only the unit, not with Aragorn (p. 13 Battle Resolution - Attacking with Armies, 5th bullet).
"A day may come when the courage of men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship. Looks like today is that day, so you guys are on your own."
The brave Gondoreans charge to their deaths, leaving Aragorn alone and therefore unkillable in that space, and the FP player still has his extra die. Legal?
|
|
|
Post by Skanvak on Oct 16, 2004 8:35:28 GMT 1
Tricky question. Look like an abuse as there are no way Aragorn leave the fortress normally. In addition, that will allow Aragorn to leave the territory as the siege is finish (technically). Thought we might consider that he used secret passage and hideout. But then why couldn't he used it while there is a garrison in the fortress. I think the game would gain in a more detail treatement of companion. The SA should be able to track them if alone.
|
|
|
Post by deadeyethingy on Oct 16, 2004 19:33:43 GMT 1
It sounds legal by a strict reading of the rules - but it might be out of the spirit of the design. I'm interested to hear how the designers come down on this. My guess is this is invalid.
Ingenious thinking though! 5 points!
|
|
|
Post by stevehope on Oct 16, 2004 19:43:48 GMT 1
I just checked my rules before responding to this...Note that the rules for leader/character death are if all units of that army in the battle are killed (p.15)--it does NOT specify that the leaders in the army have to have participated (or even that all the units need to have participated; and note that on p. 13 where you can choose to attack with a subset of an army that it does NOT suggest that this creates a "new" army).
So I actually think a strict reading of the rules would suggest that indeed Aragorn DOES die because the army which he is a part of loses all its units which participated in the battle.
However, this reading of the rules still leaves some unsatisfactory outcomes--if you attack with one unit out of an army of 10 plus 3 companions, my interpretation would imply that you would lose all 3 companions if you lost that battle (because the rules just say that if all units in the battle die, all leaders die as well). In the game, this is less of a problem than the one you pose because you would never actually DO this.
PS I laughed out loud at the quote.
|
|
|
Post by deadeyethingy on Oct 16, 2004 21:16:17 GMT 1
Hmmm. I would have assumed it to be more like a region-to-region style of combat in this instance. I say this because the sortie rules do not stipulate that you must use your ENTIRE army (nor does it say otherwise) - so the implication could go both ways.
But, it may be permissable that a sortie allows the beseiged army to send out X number of units, where X is less than the number of units in the stronghold. If so, then it would be like a region-to-region combat where a certain number of units (i.e. read Companion (Aragorn) in this case) remains behind in the previous region while the army moves forward for an attack.
I can see the argument going both ways though. So - we shall wait and listen.
|
|
|
Post by Altricaj on Oct 19, 2004 18:33:09 GMT 1
This is an interesting question. I would think that from the game standpoint it would be a legal move. After all, you're giving up a Stonghold and 2 victory points for the effort of escaping. The Sortie army also wouldn't get any character bonus while fighting. From a story standpoint, this would be like slipping away in the chaos of the after-looting.
On the other hand, I was working with the impression that when you use a character action to move an army, the army is moving WITH the character. That's just me though.
I'm glad this came up now. I have a friend that always exploits rules like these! Time to head him off at the pass!
|
|
|
Post by deadeyethingy on Oct 19, 2004 19:04:36 GMT 1
Altricaj,
"On the other hand, I was working with the impression that when you use a character action to move an army, the army is moving WITH the character. That's just me though."
You're dead right there. However, the scenario suggests that they use an Army action die to start the sortie, in which case no companion/leader need be present.
|
|
|
Post by Altricaj on Oct 19, 2004 19:31:00 GMT 1
Ah, yes! My mistake.
In this case I would think it's a fair move. A cowardly move, but a fair move.
|
|
Veldrin
Lord of the Nazgûl
Posts: 1,305
|
Post by Veldrin on Oct 21, 2004 8:01:26 GMT 1
Francesco Nepitello, one of the designers, have given the official answer to this question. I have posted it on the FAQ at my site.
Here it is :
Q Can a Character (e.g. Aragorn, Gandalf, or less likely, the Witch-King, the Mouth of Sauron, or Saruman) decide to sortie out of a besieged Stronghold with all remaining units, but with out the Character, towards certain death? Yes, the Stronghold is lost, but the Character, and his extra Action die, are not!?
A No, for any or all the Characters/Leaders to stay behind, at least one unit must be left with them.
[glow=green,2,300]Veldrin[/glow]
|
|
|
Post by Darok on Oct 21, 2004 13:37:46 GMT 1
I would just like to confirm that this rule only applies in cases of sorties right? Normal attacks can still be done with leaders left in the rearguard(thus forsaking their benefits). Another related question(this one is in the FAQ but I still don't understand it): When an army attacks with a Character Action Die in a non-sortie situation, can it do so with all its Leaders/Companions/ Nazgul/Minions Leaders left in the rearguard, forgoing their bonuses but keeping them safe?
|
|
Veldrin
Lord of the Nazgûl
Posts: 1,305
|
Post by Veldrin on Oct 21, 2004 16:55:32 GMT 1
I would just like to confirm that this rule only applies in cases of sorties right? Normal attacks can still be done with leaders left in the rearguard(thus forsaking their benefits).
This rule always apply, to leave a Leader/Character behind in an assault at least one unit mus be left behind.
When it then comes to moving the army into the Region attacked remember that movement into the attacked Region is always optional so you could leave Aragorn alone in the Region after the battle is fought while the rest of the army advances into the captured Region.
When an army attacks with a Character Action Die in a non-sortie situation, can it do so with all its Leaders/Companions/ Nazgul/Minions Leaders left in the rearguard, forgoing their bonuses but keeping them safe?
No, it is the same situation as the sortie question. At least one unit must be left in the rear guard, if not there are no rear guard for the characters, Leaders or Nazgûl to stay with.
When it then comes to moving the army into the Region attacked remember that movement into the attacked Region is always optional so you could leave Aragorn alone in the Region after the battle is fought while the rest of the army advances into the captured Region.
[glow=green,2,300]Veldrin[/glow]
|
|
|
Post by cheup on Oct 21, 2004 17:05:36 GMT 1
This should be added to the FAQ, because the rules in the rulebook do not say something about it.
|
|
Veldrin
Lord of the Nazgûl
Posts: 1,305
|
Post by Veldrin on Oct 21, 2004 17:33:19 GMT 1
The rules say (on page 13 of the English rule book): It is not necessary to attack with all units of an Army; it is possible to commit only a portion of the Army to the upcoming battle. The remaining Army units (and Leaders/Characters) are considered to have been left as a rearguard.., (Emphasis added)
So the rules only say that you are allowed to leave units behind, and if you do so, you may also leave Leaders/Characters behind with them. It doesn't say that you may leave Leaders/Characters behind by themselves.
[glow=green,2,300]Veldrin[/glow]
|
|
|
Post by Darok on Oct 22, 2004 0:45:11 GMT 1
Sorry for dragging this on. While I can understand the case about leaders(who cannot survive alone) not being able to stay behind without any army units, why must Characters/Minions/Nazgul also be comitted if all the army units in their regions are comitted? They should be able to remain out of the battle by themselves.
The other question I have is related to Character Action Die. If I activate an Army with a Character/ Leader/ Nazgul/Minion using a Character Action Die, can I move or attack without any of the Character/Minions/ Leaders/Nazgul in that Army? To put it in another way, can I leave all my Characters/Minions/Leaders/Nazgul in the rearguard (or in the original region during movement)despite using a Character Die to activate the Army they are in?
|
|
Veldrin
Lord of the Nazgûl
Posts: 1,305
|
Post by Veldrin on Oct 22, 2004 9:50:39 GMT 1
To simply move the army at least one Leader must join the army.
If you initiate combat at least one Leader must be in the actual combat but remember that Movement after the battle has been fought is always optional so all your leaaders/Characters can stay behind if at least one unit remains in the original Region.
As to why Characters can' just stay out of the fighting it is like this, and it is in the FAQ:
Q When a Character (Companion or Minon) is in a Region with a friendly army, this Character automatically becomes a Leader of that army?
A Yes, the Character automatically becomes a Leader of the friendly Army.
So if the Character is in a Region with a friendly army it becomes a Leader of that army and to have a Leader or Character stay behind when an army attacks you must have a rear guard (at least one unit that is left behind in the original Region), see page 13 of the English Rule book.
[glow=green,2,300]Veldrin[/glow]
|
|