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Post by hendriks65 on Feb 15, 2015 12:31:37 GMT 1
Hi there. We played the LM extension for the first time with the collectors edition, carefully checking double new event cards etc. It works well. I made the white lines around the cards black with a permanent marker and with the card sleeves it's not visible what the new LM cards are.
A few questions came up;
- SP had a card in which the number of Nazgul was important adjacent to or inside a free peoples stronghold. Number of Nazgul, so not nazgul leadership right? Does this include the witch king, is he always a Nazgul? Player also thought mouth of sauron was a nazgul but that's never the case right?
- recovering and removing keeper dice; there is a rule we totally don't get in the LM rulebook. "rules that apply to the recovery of free peoples action dice from the hunt pool (such as the mandatory allocation of 1 die to the hunt pool for the shadow player; or the guide ability of gandalf keeper of narya) do not apply if the recovered die from the hunt box is a keeper's die that rolled an eye result"
I know the keeper dice eyes must for both players always be chosen as result right, but what does above rule mean when FP roles an eye result. You must choose it and it enters the hunt box as eye, but can it then not be played the next round for gandalf even if he is still the guide?
- One card said; draw a hunt tile, if the tile is a special tile ignore it. He drew a smeagol tile, is that a special tile or are those only the 2 x 4 special mordor track tiles?
- Must you play all keeper dices? I mean, FP can have a max of 3, with a high possibility of throwing an eye. Can you select that you only add gandalf and galadriel keeper dice even if lord elrond is in play?
- There are 2 "three rings for the elven kings" cards now, there was one in the collectors edition and one in the LM expension, both have different effects, one recovers them at 4+, one at 5+. Both have different combard card effects. Leaving house rules aside, from a game balance perspective, would it be too strong if 2 such character event cards are in play for the FP? I'm thinking both have very different effects, the possibility of recovering them with 3 dices of hits at 5+ are usually only giving 1 result, the 4+ can give 2 usually. Would it be standard to add that new LM card?
- Gothmog, pretty strong character, can muster in any free region with a sauron army. A free region is then also if a sauron army is besieging a FP stronghold? What if that army only holds 1 sauron regular unit and 9 saruman units, is it then still a sauron army?
- Unconquered, so, if Rohan retakes conquered Minas Tirith, it is still not possible to name it unconquered again, it had to be taken by Gondor? What if 1 Gondor army unit and 9 rohan units were present in the retaking of Minas Tirith? What if the last Gondor unit was taken as casualty when the battle was already won but SP had a hit still?
- The SP starts to besiege Rivendell with the witch king. Ring bearers are there. The witch king is now in the same region as the ring bearers right? This gives hunt rerolls, one for the shadow armies there, one for the nazgul there and also one for the new witch king chief, although rules have changed for him and the hunt rerolls are gone for him. So, maximum hunt rerolls 2 (1 for any nazgul, one for any shadow army units besieging the stronghold?)
Thanks!!!
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Post by Krieghund on Feb 15, 2015 15:31:20 GMT 1
Hi there. We played the LM extension for the first time with the collectors edition, carefully checking double new event cards etc. It works well. I made the white lines around the cards black with a permanent marker and with the card sleeves it's not visible what the new LM cards are. LoME is intended to be played with the 2nd edition of WotR. There may be a few inconsistencies with the 1st edition, but they should still mesh fairly well. By the way, there is a conversion kit (cards only) that allows you to play by the 2nd edition rules with the Collector's Edition. A few questions came up; - SP had a card in which the number of Nazgul was important adjacent to or inside a free peoples stronghold. Number of Nazgul, so not nazgul leadership right? Some cards require Nazgûl Leadership, while others simply require their presence. The requirement is stated on each card. Does this include the witch king, is he always a Nazgul? From page 39 of the CE Rulebook: Player also thought mouth of sauron was a nazgul but that's never the case right? The Mouth of Sauron is not a Nazgûl. - recovering and removing keeper dice; there is a rule we totally don't get in the LM rulebook. "rules that apply to the recovery of free peoples action dice from the hunt pool (such as the mandatory allocation of 1 die to the hunt pool for the shadow player; or the guide ability of gandalf keeper of narya) do not apply if the recovered die from the hunt box is a keeper's die that rolled an eye result" The rule being referenced for the allocation to the Hunt Box is from the 2nd edition. It requires that the Shadow Player allocate at least one die to the Hunt Box if the Free Peoples Player recovered at least one die from the Hunt Box in the previous turn (i.e., moved or hid the Fellowship). A Keeper die with an Eye result doesn't count, as it was used by the Shadow rather than the Free Peoples. I know the keeper dice eyes must for both players always be chosen as result right, but what does above rule mean when FP roles an eye result. You must choose it and it enters the hunt box as eye, but can it then not be played the next round for gandalf even if he is still the guide? It can be played the next round if at least one other Free Peoples Action die was also recovered from the Hunt Box, but not if the Keeper die was the only die recovered. - One card said; draw a hunt tile, if the tile is a special tile ignore it. He drew a smeagol tile, is that a special tile or are those only the 2 x 4 special mordor track tiles? Sméagol Tiles are not Special Tiles. Special Tiles are the red and blue ones. - Must you play all keeper dices? I mean, FP can have a max of 3, with a high possibility of throwing an eye. Can you select that you only add gandalf and galadriel keeper dice even if lord elrond is in play? You must roll all of the Keeper dice that are in play. The more power the Keepers exercise, the greater the chance that Sauron will notice. - There are 2 "three rings for the elven kings" cards now, there was one in the collectors edition and one in the LM expension, both have different effects, one recovers them at 4+, one at 5+. Both have different combard card effects. Leaving house rules aside, from a game balance perspective, would it be too strong if 2 such character event cards are in play for the FP? I'm thinking both have very different effects, the possibility of recovering them with 3 dices of hits at 5+ are usually only giving 1 result, the 4+ can give 2 usually. Would it be standard to add that new LM card? It sounds like you're playing with both the LoME and the Twilight of the Third Age (ToTA) expansions together. ToTA is a 1st edition expansion, and LoME is a 2nd edition expansion. LoME actually covers parts of ToTA, and the other parts will be covered by future 2nd edition expansions. Because of this overlap, the 1st and 2nd edition expansions were not meant to be mixed together. If you do mix them, I would suggest removing the ToTA elements that overlap with LoME elements. - Gothmog, pretty strong character, can muster in any free region with a sauron army. With a Shadow Army, actually. A free region is then also if a sauron army is besieging a FP stronghold? Correct. What if that army only holds 1 sauron regular unit and 9 saruman units, is it then still a sauron army? Since the requirement is that the Army be a Shadow Army, Gothmog may recruit into it. - Unconquered, so, if Rohan retakes conquered Minas Tirith, it is still not possible to name it unconquered again, it had to be taken by Gondor? What if 1 Gondor army unit and 9 rohan units were present in the retaking of Minas Tirith? What if the last Gondor unit was taken as casualty when the battle was already won but SP had a hit still? A Settlement is unconquered if it is controlled by its original owner. It doesn't matter whether it was previously under enemy control or who recaptured it. - The SP starts to besiege Rivendell with the witch king. Ring bearers are there. The witch king is now in the same region as the ring bearers right? Yes. This gives hunt rerolls, one for the shadow armies there, one for the nazgul there and also one for the new witch king chief, although rules have changed for him and the hunt rerolls are gone for him. So, maximum hunt rerolls 2 (1 for any nazgul, one for any shadow army units besieging the stronghold?) Correct. |
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Post by hendriks65 on Feb 15, 2015 21:03:54 GMT 1
Thanks so much again Krieghund! We're playing the collectors edition actually, which is the first edition and battles of the third age combined (indeed twilight of the third age). The cards for this collector's edition can't be interchanged with the upgrade kit, which I do actually have as it has the card sleeves. It did come with a full set of 2nd edition cards but as said, this can't be combined with the battles/twilight of the third age, as these hold i.e. the 8 ent figures and need special cards, also for the various new factions on both sides. So I need to keep those cards. What I did was carefully see which ones were double and left those out with the LoME expension. It does work very well. The particular 3 rings for the elven kings might indeed be too strong to keep in, I'll leave the 4+ hit in there...We do actually use the 2nd edition rule book and also all 2nd edition character cards, unless they were now changed by the LoME ones. The battles of middle earth stuff stays as is. Some characters from LoME were already indeed in the colelctors edition, like Smeagol and Lady Galadriel, some cards were updated though and we just play with all the updates, so it does mix well into a great game I think. Very clear on the witch king, thanks! I'm a bit confused on this you wrote; The rule being referenced for the allocation to the Hunt Box is from the 2nd edition. It requires that the Shadow Player allocate at least one die to the Hunt Box if the Free Peoples Player recovered at least one die from the Hunt Box in the previous turn (i.e., moved or hid the Fellowship). A Keeper die with an Eye result doesn't count, as it was used by the Shadow rather than the Free Peoples.Dices for hiding the ring don't go into the hunt box right? Yes, we play with 2nd edition rules, I just did not get the remark, but clear that an eye keep dice can be used next round if all criteria were met. So, I think simpler to say that only if the fellowship moved using a character dice during the previous turn can the gandalf keep dice be recovered. A Settlement is unconquered if it is controlled by its original owner. It doesn't matter whether it was previously under enemy control or who recaptured it. It says in LoME; "a settlement which was captured by the opponent and then recaptured BY IT'S ORIGINAL OWNER, is considered to be unconquered again." Hence my question about a mixed army with the former owner as part of it. But I guess it will be unconquered again in that case. Thanks again for your replies!! Much appreciated, I can't believe that after playing about 12 times both 2nd version and now only colelctors edition, we still run into unclear stuff...  |
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Post by Krieghund on Feb 16, 2015 0:19:33 GMT 1
I'm a bit confused on this you wrote; The rule being referenced for the allocation to the Hunt Box is from the 2nd edition. It requires that the Shadow Player allocate at least one die to the Hunt Box if the Free Peoples Player recovered at least one die from the Hunt Box in the previous turn (i.e., moved or hid the Fellowship). A Keeper die with an Eye result doesn't count, as it was used by the Shadow rather than the Free Peoples.Dices for hiding the ring don't go into the hunt box right? Yes, we play with 2nd edition rules, I just did not get the remark, but clear that an eye keep dice can be used next round if all criteria were met. So, I think simpler to say that only if the fellowship moved using a character dice during the previous turn can the gandalf keep dice be recovered. Yes, quite right. I was thinking about something else when I mentioned hiding. |
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Post by hendriks65 on May 3, 2015 12:03:41 GMT 1
I have a silly question on a card; sauron may recruit up to 5 regular units in Dol Goldur if up to 5 Nazgul are present there. He may then move or attack with that army. What if Sauton is not at war, he may still attack right, as cards overwrite normal rules. This obviously has political effects on any army unit it attacks. If there are 2 regular army units of the Elves and the North it attacks in the region left of Dol Goldur, do then both the elves and the North move 1 step on the political track and both get activated?
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Post by Krieghund on May 3, 2015 12:28:47 GMT 1
I have a silly question on a card; sauron may recruit up to 5 regular units in Dol Goldur if up to 5 Nazgul are present there. He may then move or attack with that army. What if Sauton is not at war, he may still attack right, as cards overwrite normal rules. No, he may not attack. Cards only override rules that they specifically say that they override. The card does not explicitly give permission to attack when not At War. The only exceptions to this are recruitment cards, Ent cards, and "Dead Men of Dunharrow". The rules that they override are detailed in the Rulebook. This obviously has political effects on any army unit it attacks. If there are 2 regular army units of the Elves and the North it attacks in the region left of Dol Goldur, do then both the elves and the North move 1 step on the political track and both get activated? Yes. |
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Post by hendriks65 on May 3, 2015 14:06:54 GMT 1
ok wow thanks Krieghund, it's always more complex then I think.
One more, Eomer, son of Eomund, this gives units in a FREE Rohan region containing a settlement, when Helms Deep is under siege, I would not consider this a free region for the Free Peoples so I can't place them there, correct?
And one clarification needed, Blade of Westernesse, play if a Hobbit is in the battle; use one hit during THE leader re-roll to eliminate one minion of your choice that is participating in the battle.
-> does this mean it applies if 1 hit is made during the SP and/or FP leader re-roll or only the leader re-roll of the FP?
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Post by Krieghund on May 3, 2015 18:09:58 GMT 1
One more, Eomer, son of Eomund, this gives units in a FREE Rohan region containing a settlement, when Helms Deep is under siege, I would not consider this a free region for the Free Peoples so I can't place them there, correct? Correct. And one clarification needed, Blade of Westernesse, play if a Hobbit is in the battle; use one hit during THE leader re-roll to eliminate one minion of your choice that is participating in the battle. -> does this mean it applies if 1 hit is made during the SP and/or FP leader re-roll or only the leader re-roll of the FP? Only the Free Peoples' Leader re-roll. |
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Post by hendriks65 on May 16, 2015 10:13:27 GMT 1
We played again the CE with the LOME expension added, but obviously not all LOME characters and cards as some are already in the CE battles of the third age.
We do play with 2nd edition rules. Just for interest this game lastet 10 hours!!! We gave up undecided as was getting close to morning...next time we use a timer to limit thinking to 2-3 mins per action die, it goes fast the first part, but then gets more complex and you need to decide which cards to remove as max 6 etc etc.
Ring went quickly towards Mordor, but with 9 corruption and only SP special tiles brought into the Morfor hunt pool, I decided to move into Minas Tirith and heal, which obviously takes ages.
SP brought the witch king chief of the ringwraiths into play, the LOME version. Gives an extra character card every time you play one, so SP character cards were finished after 8 hours...
Since the beginning, we thought that witch king version also provides a hunt re-roll. I'm doubting that now as I see that ability on the old version. So, does that witch king version actualy give as being a Nazgul 1 unt re-roll? We did play it that if more "normal" Nazgul are there it's still 1 hunt re-roll unless i.e. SP army units are also there.
It is clear to me that that wtch king version does not remove the extra minion SP dices of LOME with a star result, right? Only the black captain does that?
The character card that can be redrawn as special ability if played when that witch king version is in play is every time right, not once a turn?
Same for palantir of Orthanc, also EVERY time the SP uses a event die result to play a card, even if he has 3-4 of those in 1 turn?
I got "help unwanted" and was able to attack a SP army besieging Minas Tirith, this is a field battle and the SP could only defend with 1 die as MT had 5 army units still, but the SP can retreat after 1 battle round is played to a free region right?
Before that, trying to be clever, since Lossernach was still mine, and trying to make his retreat impossible, I moved 1 FP army unit to Druadon forest, but he attacked me with the army besieging Minas Tirith and moved 1 army unit there, this is allowed right? Using a besieging army to just attack another region next to it and still stay besieging Minas Tirith?
Thanks!!!
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Post by Krieghund on May 16, 2015 13:43:10 GMT 1
Since the beginning, we thought that witch king version also provides a hunt re-roll. I'm doubting that now as I see that ability on the old version. So, does that witch king version actualy give as being a Nazgul 1 unt re-roll? We did play it that if more "normal" Nazgul are there it's still 1 hunt re-roll unless i.e. SP army units are also there. The LoME Chief of the Ringwraiths allows one Hunt re-roll regardless of the number of Nazgul in the region, just as any other Nazgul does. It is clear to me that that wtch king version does not remove the extra minion SP dices of LOME with a star result, right? Only the black captain does that? Any version of the Witch-king does it. See page 11 of the LoME Rulebook. The character card that can be redrawn as special ability if played when that witch king version is in play is every time right, not once a turn? Every time. Same for palantir of Orthanc, also EVERY time the SP uses a event die result to play a card, even if he has 3-4 of those in 1 turn? Every time. Note, however, that these abilities don't "stack". If "The Palantir of Orthanc" is in play and the Chief of the Ringwraiths is in the region with the Fellowship when an Event die is used to play a Character card, only one card is drawn (see page 29 of the LoME Rulebook). I got "help unwanted" and was able to attack a SP army besieging Minas Tirith, this is a field battle and the SP could only defend with 1 die as MT had 5 army units still, but the SP can retreat after 1 battle round is played to a free region right? Yes. Before that, trying to be clever, since Lossernach was still mine, and trying to make his retreat impossible, I moved 1 FP army unit to Druadon forest, but he attacked me with the army besieging Minas Tirith and moved 1 army unit there, this is allowed right? Using a besieging army to just attack another region next to it and still stay besieging Minas Tirith? Yes, it's allowed. In fact, he needn't have advanced any units at all after the battle if he didn't want to. |
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