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Post by mrweasely on Oct 8, 2007 6:06:06 GMT 1
Though there's a lot of talk about how great the Free have it in Twilight, there's not much talk about the improvements the Shadow gets. I've thought of some, can you think of others? - Siege. Its a dice-bidding contest, and the Shadow has 180% as many dice as the the Free People. Guess who wins most of the time. Also, they have three trump cards that let them negate any runaway advantage the Free People manage to set up.
- Balrog. The guy's a walking life-insurance policy on the Witch King. Now the Witch King can engage in all kinds of daring risky behavior that Aragorn and Gandalf the White just can't match.
- Smeagol. Sure he's primarily a help for the Free, but the little guy sure has a habit of appearing and disappearing at the most annoying possible time. At first I thought Smeagol was 90% help for Free, 10% help for Shadow. Now I think its more like 75%-25%.
- Ents. The invasion of Rohan is now easier, because you no longer have to split your forces between the Fords and Orthanc. Also, with just one bullet-stopper orc at the Fords, Saruman is immune to a single Ent card. The new ents keep Saruman healthier.
- Corsairs. Ha ha, just kidding on this one.
But seriously, what, if anything, did I miss?
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Post by magicgeek on Oct 8, 2007 6:24:23 GMT 1
How about the Hillmen? The first 4 Hillmen are great for the shadow.
The Chief of the Nazgul is White Hot Goodness. (in 10% of games)
X X X
But. Huh?
Balrog is fine, I guess. Aint exactly a shadow rort fest though.
Smeagol is pro shadow because it is only 75% pro Free?
Ents are so much stronger for the Free that any discussion of the Ent changes that doesn't look at how the Ents can conquer Dol Guldur and / or Moria is completely missing the point. Lorien didn't used to kill the Witch King with Ents.
Corsairs got nailed, yes.
And then there was Siege Engines. I believe Siege Engines are very cerebral things. I think they massively help the Elves. I think they hurt the Free overall.
Sorry, this was about the improvements for the Shadow in the expansion, right?
Sorry, cant see it myself.
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Post by mrweasely on Oct 8, 2007 6:49:17 GMT 1
Well, off topic is ok here, as long as its interesting. You say the Catapults help the Elves, but I think they screw them most of all. If elves spread their muster bag evenly over their strongholds, you get two [1/2/1] strongholds and two [1/3/1] strongholds, with one regular held in reserve to stretch elites out. Catapults don't help the [1/2/1] strongholds. 5hp is simply Strife Bait. I guess they're okay for the [1/3/1] strongholds. Or do you muster out your elves early and get one [1/4/1] stronghold, which probably gets ignored, and then every other stronghold is left weaker? That doesn't seem good to me either.
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Post by alatar on Oct 8, 2007 16:08:39 GMT 1
I think the Hillmen are the best for the Shadow. They are worth a lot more than 1/2 an Orc (due to combat dice, combat cards, or leaving them in odd numbers somewhere) , and their ability to show up "in the front lines" in Rohan can be really sweet in making the push to Edoras.
The trebs seem to save the day for the Free in all the games I play. I see lots of ties, break down, build one again, break down again, type battles. It's almost like a FP turn stall.
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Post by Goodgulf the Grey on Oct 8, 2007 17:45:40 GMT 1
- Balrog - Agreed that this is a nice addition for the Shadow. He comes with an Elite and can deter the FSP from going through Moria. Also, SP can get him if they only roll 1 Muster and finally he can provide an action die without getting Sauron to War and giving Galadriel to FP easily.
- Siege Engines - a mixed blessing. They are good for SP for the reasons you mention but they can prolong some sieges which can help the FP.
- Corsairs - Actually I like the expansion corsairs, but I think the event card for them is too weak. They do allow for an almost simultaneous invasion of Gondor's Strongholds if planned. This is much more controlled then under the original rules where you needed a card to get the "surprise attack".
- Dunlendings - The first Muster is very good for them and once in a while it is helpful to get them to finish Rohan. They are also great at slowing down the Ents.
- New Witch King - I guess he counts as an FP advantage
- Smeagol - Good for the SP because he can screw up GtG or Strider's Guide ability. Helpful if he dies and Gollum is Guide. Still mostly an improvement for FP though.
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Post by mrweasely on Oct 8, 2007 20:27:55 GMT 1
I'd be interested in knowing people's opinions, if you were playing Shadow and you could flip on or off certain systems (to revert them to base-game), which would you enable?:
Plastic Siege, yes Plastic Balrog, yes Plastic Hillmen, probably not. Plastic Corsairs, no Smeagol, no. Galadriel. no. Plastic Corsaris, no. Plastic Ents, personally yes (soaks an FP muster, Ents can't hit orcs) Nazgul Chief, yes
I didn't take the plastic hillmen because I miss suprise-attacking Rivendell or Shire with the old Rage of the Dunlendings card. The new Rage requires an extra army move to consolidate the armies.
And the plastic ents ... I just don't see them taking these Shadow strongholds that often. Come to think of it, they only seem to help me with Orthanc. I'm sure in the 2% of games in which they sack Moria it seems worth it, but personally it never happens here. Maybe my shadow play is more cautious than yours, to discourage FPMV.
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Post by Goodgulf the Grey on Oct 8, 2007 20:43:14 GMT 1
Siege Engines- No Balrog - Yes Hillmen - Yes Corsairs - Yes Smeagol - No Galadriel - No Ents - No -- I like using Voice of Saruman for free Nazgul Chief - Yes -- even though I doubt I would use him
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Post by Krieghund on Oct 8, 2007 22:46:20 GMT 1
Funny you should bring this up. The wife actually prefers the base game to the expansion - she thinks the expansion is "too busy". Since I like the flexibilty that the expansion adds, we're trying out a variant that uses only some of the expansion elements. I'm trying to keep some of the flexibility without adding too much complexity. Here's what we're currently using:
Siege Engines: No Balrog: Yes Hillmen: No Corsairs: No Smeagol: No Galadriel: Yes Ents: No (slight modifications to base Ents) CotR: Yes New Event Cards: Yes (with some modifications)
It's working pretty well so far.
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Post by mrweasely on Oct 9, 2007 1:05:38 GMT 1
Wow, Goodgulf, you with a straight face can say that Siege Engines wouldn't help the Shadow? Since you're somehow now the most famous Free People's player, that carries a lot of water, but still, *googgle*.
But how can you seriously contend that Plastic Corsairs will get you more VP per die than the cardboard corsairs of yore. I feel like I get the S&E to war in 60% of base games and only 30% of Twilight games, because I don't have the good chance to get Dol Amroth so cheaply.
Then again, I've never corsair'd The Havens, so what do I know?
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Post by Lord Aragorn on Oct 9, 2007 6:47:18 GMT 1
My opinion:
Siege Engines- Yes Balrog - Yes Hillmen - Yes Corsairs - Yes Smeagol - No Galadriel - No Ents - No Nazgul Chief - Yes
Corsairs aren't very useful, but they make a game more interesting (isn't that the point of the game). I like new Ents, I am FP player, in my opinion they are far more useful than before. I rarely use Nazgul Chief, but he can help SP.
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Post by magicgeek on Oct 9, 2007 7:17:55 GMT 1
I think it fair to point out that a turn 1 Free Engine in Lorien is a completely reasonable thing to do. Shadow cant do that.
That one seige engine means the elves might just break the first Lorien assault, get Galadriel, get an army and win.
"evenly over their strongholds, you get two [1/2/1] strongholds and two [1/3/1] " Who evenly distributes pieces? Siege Engines are about The King in Dol Amroth beating back the second full strength army. Breaking their two Siege engines on a sortie, and having a kipper. Or this could happen in Lorien / Rivendell or Minas T.
I think the question of toggle is poorly asked. Asking which toggle help the Shadow is one thing. Asking which toggle you would like to play as Shadow is quite another.
Trying to win with shadow > Siege Engines: yes Balrog: Yes Hillmen: No Corsairs: no Smeagol: No Galadriel: No Ents: No CotR: Yes New Event Cards: No
Trying to Enjoy the game as shadow > Siege Engines: yes Balrog: Yes Hillmen: Yes Corsairs: Yes Smeagol: Yes Galadriel: Yes Ents: Yes CotR: Yes New Event Cards: No
thats odd. I didn't realise I dont like the new cards so much.
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Post by Lord Aragorn on Oct 9, 2007 10:10:04 GMT 1
Totally agree with MG!
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Post by mrweasely on Oct 9, 2007 16:28:10 GMT 1
I think it fair to point out that a turn 1 Free Engine in Lorien is a completely reasonable thing to do. Shadow cant do that. That one seige engine means the elves might just break the first Lorien assault, get Galadriel, get an army and win. "evenly over their strongholds, you get two [1/2/1] strongholds and two [1/3/1] " Who evenly distributes pieces? Siege Engines are about The King in Dol Amroth beating back the second full strength army. Breaking their two Siege engines on a sortie, and having a kipper. Or this could happen in Lorien / Rivendell or Minas T. That's what I thought too, but I wanted to make sure. The strategy sure would work better if there weren't 8 free strongholds for the Shadow to choose from. Sure, some games the Free can have a strong defense everywhere, and the Shadow must attack into strength. But in twilight that's not the case the vast majority of the time. (it is pretty fun when it happens though).
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Post by Goodgulf the Grey on Oct 9, 2007 17:07:36 GMT 1
Wow, Goodgulf, you with a straight face can say that Siege Engines wouldn't help the Shadow? Since you're somehow now the most famous Free People's player, that carries a lot of water, but still, *googgle*. But how can you seriously contend that Plastic Corsairs will get you more VP per die than the cardboard corsairs of yore. I feel like I get the S&E to war in 60% of base games and only 30% of Twilight games, because I don't have the good chance to get Dol Amroth so cheaply. Then again, I've never corsair'd The Havens, so what do I know? I do feel that Siege Engines are a mixed blessing and that they actually can help the FP since they can be mustered prior to nations being at war. This can save the FP using some unneeded Political Musters early in the game. Also, they force the SP to wait until the right time to fight sieges which can give the FP time to draw into Muster Cards in key strongholds or get Companions to save a stronghold unexpectedly. I am not contending that the new Corsairs are more efficient than the original. The difference is that the new Corsairs can show up whenever you want them and are not dependent on an event card. 30% of Twilight Games for S&E seems really low to me, but then again I don't play a very efficient Shadow like some of you. As for Event cards -- I like the new Event cards in Twilight for the most part. The new Corsairs is weak and the Gondor/Pelargir one is awful and Shadow of Dol Goldur is okay. However, Heads of the Fallen (combat), Captain of Despair, Great Engines, and Gates are Closed are all very good IMHO. Three Rings, Rangers of North, and Wind from the West are all good for FP too but new FP combat cards are pretty weak. Also, I think I may be one of the only people who likes the Balrog event card -- worst case it is a Palantir for a Will if the FP decides to remove it (haven't ever seen the Balrog removed by Gandalf with Character die yet).
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Post by rafamir on Oct 9, 2007 23:58:35 GMT 1
I happen to like both the basic and the expansion games.
Ents: The Ents are much more unpredictable in Twilight, and hence more of a nuisance to the Shadow. As FP I've used them to lift sieges in Lorien, Helm's Deep, and even Minas Tirith since the Shadow tends to reinforce the Fords or Orthanc in anticipation. As Shadow I'm more comfortable with Basic Ents.
Hillmen: Nice way to beef up your Rohan steamroller without adding Ents to Fangorn.
Siege Engines: There's nothing I like better as Shadow than to bring in towers to force that large Lorien army to roll 6s in its defense. Timing is needed -- it works best on a turn with few or no Free muster dice. Towers keep my elites intact longer. And there's Head o' Fallen to warm my cold, dark heart.
Corsairs: Poor Corsairs, they get such a lousy rap. Their saving grace is quick reinforcement to multiple potential locations. Recent game had Corsair ships in Umbar, Pelargir and Dol Amroth, where WK was leading an S&E stack against Aragorn, Imrahil, and a fullish defense. WK took some bad hits, but with a few musters in Umbar it took half an Army die to land elites in Dol Amroth while some troops garrisoning Osgiliath could have jumped the boat in Pelargir to the same end. Horde from the East + Shadow Lengthens can make for interesting play in Far Harad if Corsairs are in play.
New events: I'm ambivalent, but I always seem to get Captain of Despair early in the game, yet I want him for the endgame.
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