Post by luckydogwilson on Jan 29, 2007 23:00:55 GMT 1
Hello to all.
This is my first post here, done in response to reading over some (but by no means all) of the older discussions. I apologize in advance if this has either been covered in the greater past, or already thrashed out elsewhere, - I'll catch up eventually.
"Historically the Sp's high point was 2" {Dale and Pelargir}
This flat statement seems to have been widely accepted, and the possibility of following a "book" strategy to have been much disparaged.
A couple of people have quoted various references to back this up, but I feel that the apparent blanket acceptance of this position is flawed in its understanding of "what actually takes place in the historic time line".
First, I offer the idea that historic score is really 3.
The Shire which the hobbits finally return to (in the book), while not perhaps "conquered", in the - exterminated to the last inhabitant - sense, is surely - in the eyes of its own people "an occupied country" - and that, some 8 months after the fall of Sauron!
No great battles have been fought, but would one ever expect that of the hobbits unaided?
Exact dates for the "take over" are not forthcoming from the text, and it could well be argued that it does not happen till Saruman himself gets there. However there is textual evidence to support a rather earlier date. At what point political influence through a puppet figurehead, becomes an outright domination, could be debatable with the best of information.
I think there is a strong case for a small army (1, 2?) of Isenguard regulars grabbing the Shire - in game terms- before Sarumans "demise".
Still 2 or 3 VP's seems a poor showing, until you start to look at what else is happening.
March 10th is the "Dawnless day" in the book, I figure thats the cue for mustering the WK.
In game terms I would equate the SP play to this point as muster and maneuver. Saruman has been activated, and Mordor and Easterlings also, but the WK has not been called prior to this (No winged Nazgul west of the river), in order to keep the FP countries inactive.
Saruman was supposed to seal off Rohan (and has picked of the Shire?), but that was spoiled by unforeseen combination of cards and companions.
In the next seven days(!):
1. A Mordor Army invades Rohan from the Northeast (aiming for Edoras?)
2. Lorien is attacked {this the first of 3 assaults, I would equate to placing it under siege}
3.Pelagir falls to the Corsairs (exact date unclear),
4.Dale is overrun and,
5. Erebor Besieged.
6.The hammer falls on Minas T.
8. Although not explicitly listed on the time line, it is also noted that the Woodelves realm is attacked ("long battle under the trees and great ruin of fire..."), whether one chooses to see this as besieging or not may be a matter for taste.
Put another way; Having played cautiously to avoid activations, the SP hits all foes simultaneously to lock them down and stop them from helping one another.
Saruman fails to deal with Rohan beforehand, to stop them aiding others, but a blocking army is sent (which can incidentally pick up Edoras) - and only a perfect selection of cards allow Rohan to Minas T, and they still need "Dead Men of Dunharrow" to pull the coals out the fire.
If only 3 VP are immediately taken, another 6 Minas T, Lorien, Erebor (possibly 8 depending on Woodland realm) are definitely besieged, and should be beyond aid, and an army is sent after the last "easy" 1VP (Edoras).
One might imagine that in game terms the SP has nearly every figure on the board, possibly having sent troops from Mordor to assist at DG V's Lorien/Woodlands. Not all the sieges are necessarily strong eough to take the place, but they can be tidied off individually.
At the time of attack Minas T probably is
take-able as a convenient first target. Shame about "Paths of the Woses", "Help Unlooked For" and "Dead men..." getting in the way.
Now there are many who will fault this strategy as "sub-optimal" in many areas, especially when compared with much of the discussion here - though I am interested to note that this historical approach encompasses rather more "DEW North" than the book is generally given credit for.
Sub-optimal it may(or not) be in game terms, but it is surely not the totally lame strategy that it has been presented as. Also, it's worth noting that although the Sp's top score was indeed 2 (or 3), the military effort was geared at 10+ VPs
It is worth pointing out, that when Pelargir is relieved, Minas T saved, and the Rohan attack foiled by Ents(third card!), the SP still has 6(?) points under siege +2(?) VPs in hand. The pause to muster troops and cards is spoiled by the "Last Battle", and the progress of the ring.
This is my first post here, done in response to reading over some (but by no means all) of the older discussions. I apologize in advance if this has either been covered in the greater past, or already thrashed out elsewhere, - I'll catch up eventually.
"Historically the Sp's high point was 2" {Dale and Pelargir}
This flat statement seems to have been widely accepted, and the possibility of following a "book" strategy to have been much disparaged.
A couple of people have quoted various references to back this up, but I feel that the apparent blanket acceptance of this position is flawed in its understanding of "what actually takes place in the historic time line".
First, I offer the idea that historic score is really 3.
The Shire which the hobbits finally return to (in the book), while not perhaps "conquered", in the - exterminated to the last inhabitant - sense, is surely - in the eyes of its own people "an occupied country" - and that, some 8 months after the fall of Sauron!
No great battles have been fought, but would one ever expect that of the hobbits unaided?
Exact dates for the "take over" are not forthcoming from the text, and it could well be argued that it does not happen till Saruman himself gets there. However there is textual evidence to support a rather earlier date. At what point political influence through a puppet figurehead, becomes an outright domination, could be debatable with the best of information.
I think there is a strong case for a small army (1, 2?) of Isenguard regulars grabbing the Shire - in game terms- before Sarumans "demise".
Still 2 or 3 VP's seems a poor showing, until you start to look at what else is happening.
March 10th is the "Dawnless day" in the book, I figure thats the cue for mustering the WK.
In game terms I would equate the SP play to this point as muster and maneuver. Saruman has been activated, and Mordor and Easterlings also, but the WK has not been called prior to this (No winged Nazgul west of the river), in order to keep the FP countries inactive.
Saruman was supposed to seal off Rohan (and has picked of the Shire?), but that was spoiled by unforeseen combination of cards and companions.
In the next seven days(!):
1. A Mordor Army invades Rohan from the Northeast (aiming for Edoras?)
2. Lorien is attacked {this the first of 3 assaults, I would equate to placing it under siege}
3.Pelagir falls to the Corsairs (exact date unclear),
4.Dale is overrun and,
5. Erebor Besieged.
6.The hammer falls on Minas T.
8. Although not explicitly listed on the time line, it is also noted that the Woodelves realm is attacked ("long battle under the trees and great ruin of fire..."), whether one chooses to see this as besieging or not may be a matter for taste.
Put another way; Having played cautiously to avoid activations, the SP hits all foes simultaneously to lock them down and stop them from helping one another.
Saruman fails to deal with Rohan beforehand, to stop them aiding others, but a blocking army is sent (which can incidentally pick up Edoras) - and only a perfect selection of cards allow Rohan to Minas T, and they still need "Dead Men of Dunharrow" to pull the coals out the fire.
If only 3 VP are immediately taken, another 6 Minas T, Lorien, Erebor (possibly 8 depending on Woodland realm) are definitely besieged, and should be beyond aid, and an army is sent after the last "easy" 1VP (Edoras).
One might imagine that in game terms the SP has nearly every figure on the board, possibly having sent troops from Mordor to assist at DG V's Lorien/Woodlands. Not all the sieges are necessarily strong eough to take the place, but they can be tidied off individually.
At the time of attack Minas T probably is
take-able as a convenient first target. Shame about "Paths of the Woses", "Help Unlooked For" and "Dead men..." getting in the way.
Now there are many who will fault this strategy as "sub-optimal" in many areas, especially when compared with much of the discussion here - though I am interested to note that this historical approach encompasses rather more "DEW North" than the book is generally given credit for.
Sub-optimal it may(or not) be in game terms, but it is surely not the totally lame strategy that it has been presented as. Also, it's worth noting that although the Sp's top score was indeed 2 (or 3), the military effort was geared at 10+ VPs
It is worth pointing out, that when Pelargir is relieved, Minas T saved, and the Rohan attack foiled by Ents(third card!), the SP still has 6(?) points under siege +2(?) VPs in hand. The pause to muster troops and cards is spoiled by the "Last Battle", and the progress of the ring.