Galadriel

[animalmother]

The WOTR Expansion abuses my Lady. She is a romantic, intuitive, feminine character, not a military or political powerhouse as are Aragorn and Gandalf. Giving the FP an extra Action Die for Galadriel is too imitative of Gandalf's and Aragorn's special properties.

How about really using the prophetic "Mirror of Galadriel?"

Cancel the FP extra Action Die roll for Galadriel and add the following Special Abilities:

1) For each turn Galadriel is in play, the FP may pick for reading one Event Card, either from the hand of the SP, or from any of the four Event Card Decks. Any card may be picked from the SP Hand or the Event Card Deck --either the top card, or the last card, or any cards in between. Each of these card readings is a "Vision" of Galdriel's Mirror. Visons cost no Action Dice and occur at any time in a game turn. The Event Card is returned to its original position after the Vision has been read.

2) The Fellowship is entitled to two free Visions when it visits Galadriel, and each Companion is entitled to one Vision when he visits Galadriel. Unlike Galdriel's Visions, the Fellowship's Visions and the Companions' Visons are one time events. I.e., Galadriel has a Vision every turn, but the Fellowship is entitled to just two Visions for the entire game, and each Companion is entitled to one Vision for the entire game. Again, the cards are returned to their original positions after being read, and the Visons cost no Action dice.

3) The Lady Galadriel had gifts to bestow. Once per game, the FP may draw two free Character cards when in the Fellowship Phase the Fellowship is declared in Lorien, and Galadriel is in play.

In addition, giving Lady Galadriel a Leadership rating of 2 is too much. She was not up front chopping off Orc heads. If she is to have 2 Leadership, it should be on defensive Combat dice rolls only, as her presence would inspire her Elves to rally around her.

The "Valor of the Elves" in the Expansion is kind of squirrelly, but I can live with it.

[mrweasely]

The Free don't need better intelligence about the nature of their peril. They need energy to act in their own defense.

[animalmother]

IMHO, rather than give the FP more dice, it would be better to set back Mordor and the Southrons and Easterlings a space on the Political Track. In The Return of the King, the Southrons were just marching into Ithilien when Frodo and Sam were there stewing the coneys Gollum caught for them. Minas Morgul was just emptying when they reached it. I'm guessing that in the game the Fellowship would be very lucky to make it there in eight turns, minimum.

Another way to slow down Sauron's coalition would be to treat the Southrons and Easterlings, and possibly Umbar, all as different Nations, each requiring separate Muster Action Die Rolls to advance them to "At War." The Easterlings and Southrons were quite distinct in Tolkien's imagination -- something like Berbers and Slavs. That would force an early strategic choice on the Shadow -- he could invest his Muster dice first either for a quick DEW campaign or a quick Gondor campaign -- but not both at once. If I remember right, the Easterlings were on hand for the last battle at the Black Gates of Morannon, but for the battle at Minas Tirith.

[mrweasely]

Sitting around, trying to think of uses for Event, Army, and Character dice, while waiting to roll more musters, is lame and boring. Already the game is dice-ified (unbalanced, even) by the Shadow muster density in turns 1-3. Upping the number needed for the Shadow to do anything just makes this worse.

The S&E are already on probation, and not brought to war in every Shadow victory. Making them even more persnickety will just result in them not being played.

I've played all kinds of variants, and the ones that make good games give the Free more military energy. Often, I wonder why the designers didn't find this sweet spot of fun. Then I remember: they weren't as good at playing Shadow as we are, so they might actually have been in the sweet spot.

The reason Shadow is always out-innovating Free is because Shadow gets ~7 moves per turn to the Free's ~3 (subtracting out the obvious FSP-push). The shadow's main resource is ACTIONS, which are getting more efficient with every MG post. The Free's main resource is TIME, to move/declare the FSP safely. Actions are getting more efficient. Therefore Time is gettinng less efficient.

[animalmother]

Dear Mr. Weasley, thanks for reply. What is an "MG post?" I see your point about the S&E powers not being in the game if set back on the Political Track. How about setting back Mordor one box on the Political Track instead? If this forced Mordor once in a while to forfeit a Muster card because he has not rolled enough Muster dice, that would not be the end of the game for Mordor, but would force it to make the difficult early strategic choice of which Muster card in his stuffed hand to discard without playing it.

One way to make time more efficient for the FP would be to allow the Fellowship to count off two Regions from their last declared position for each point the FSP has advanced on the Quest track, so long as both Regions counted off are free of enemy units. My Shadow players don't make much effort to use Regulars or Nazgul to anticipate and block the possible routes of the Fellowship, because they don't reckon the dispersion of force needed to do it as worth the Shadow's investment.

[magicgeek]

An "MG post" is a mad genius post.

Generally there will be an opening insult, a small piece of wisdom, and something rude and insulting at the end. Well, that is what an "MG Post" is meant to be, before the sheer number of Hawaiian shirt wearing 'Risk' players shout down any form is dissent.

I have completely left this, and many other odd posts completely alone.
I see no point in insulting the experience of any player starting off in the game.

I do not mean to be rude, I just am.
How else do I reply to "I'm guessing that in the game the Fellowship would be very lucky to make it there in eight turns, minimum." ?

I first read that and thought, fair enough, he means to Mt Doom.
But, he means to MORDOR.

A turn five win for shadow (10 VP) or turn 5 win for Free (ring), is very LUCKY.

Mr Weasley has proven that given enough monkeys, a turn 1 win is possible for the Free.
Mr Weasley did need EVERY monkey though, and they all need to be on the same team, while playing different sides, but it can be done.

The game is already a 'luckfest' as to when you get the musters.
Moving Sauron back one would not help, besides, the bad guys are the aggressors.
Inventing an entirely new counter called "the Commonwealth" is an old and good idea though.
Makes all sorts of rules work. (Mouth, last Battle, nazgul mustering. . . .)
I mean, Sauron does not live in Mt Gundabad, he lives in Mordor. Unfortunately, Mordor does not actually, technically, exist. Well, not in this game.


Muster cards are not played from Muster dice.
Muster cards are played from Palantir dice, especially in the first 4-5 turns.


Regulars & Nazgul are the best ways to get rerolls for the hunt.
Not trying for rerolls will mean the FSP will get to Mt Doom.
Sometimes this is worth trying to stop, now that Mr Hunty exists especially.
Sometimes it is worth attacking Lorien purely so you have Naz & troops in the area.
Marching a Nazgul plus guys from Rivendell all the way to Mordor has won me games before.

Often the best way to do this is to march a naz onto the FSP once. Next turn they reveal forward , and move on their first die. Then the Nazgul and army move 1 space onto the FSP again. Rerolling 6's is nice but not critical, rerolling 5's is way more effective. Rerolling 4's just doesn't happen very often. Next turn repeat the process.


My current view of this game is that it is entirely too focussed on the southern half.
That is where the books are, that is where the initial troops are, that is where all of the cards name their places.

For example, 1 card each says 'Erebor, Woodland realm, The shire or Dale'
And all of those are reinforcements, no move from here to there, no special characters that activate at these locations do something special, no enormous trees, no undead armies, no nuthin. Grey Havens reinforcement does not even say 'go to Grey Havens', and mostly goes to Gondor.

How come nothing marches in from the north of the map?
Or sails back from the west?
Why cant the free, and shadow build the other type of Engine?
Count mix just means the shadow can take the Free engines off the table when they run out, and when the Free run out of trebuchets, they recruit a shadow one off the board.
Why do we only start with 1 card?
Why does the hand limit of 6 exist? ( <- my current pet peeve. )

That sort of question, and adding or removing the base rules, is madness.

If you wish to make your own game, go ahead, but it means your results and experience are off key with everyone else. Many of the playtesters are in this hole because a lage chunk of the games they have played are with the wrong rules. Well, less developed rules anyway.

The thing bout this game is that we all start off equal again each time we sit down.
That is so not magic, an RPG, or an evolving campaign.
But it is so not a standard wargame.

In standard wargames a piece can move X, generally per turn.
In this, most free pieces do not move for the entire game.
This is really a product of the intersection of the map, and the fact moving troops means you have less of them. Each army move costs the army a strength point, in effect.

In a cut off pool, a billabong if you will, both sides in this can have such ridiculously inbred strategies. Experience in someone else's game pool is highly recommended. Everyone gets basic rules wrong.


The opening Idea of this, changing galadriel is just wrong.
Giving Gady the die make Gandalf just better.
Gady is immobile, her leadership is only defensive.
Lorien is VERY rarely gone to by the FSP.
Character cards are very weak for the Free, gaining more is not that exciting. Knowing one or two cards the opponent has really isn't that important. It also slows the game down, especially with beginners.

Gady's power of eating eyes is strong.
Gady's power of recruiting under seige is strong.
Oddly neither of these powers actually need to be used for them to have a significant effect.

I like that about Gady, even when she does not exist, she can be critical.

[animalmother]

Dear Mr. Magicgeek, thankyou for your reply. This is getting off-topic, so to be brief:

In the book, the Fellowship crosses thirteen Regions to reach Minas Morgul--including the failed attempt to get over the Misty Mountains at the High Pass. I figure repeating that feat in the game would take eight turns, but I defer to your greater experience on that.

I don't have a wide waterhole of friends willing to play this game, so rules variants are welcome to me and my one gaming compadre, to keep it interesting. Also, it's an intellectual challenge to take the pieces & cards as given, and see other ways to game them, all within the spirit of the trilogy.

I am surprised to see you write that Shadow uses only Palantir to play Muster cards, because that means that he must be using the 1/6 frequency Muster Action die rolls to Muster an Elite or 2 Nazgul/Regulars instead. The average Shadow Muster Card yields over four regulars. So an experienced Shadow prefers a blitzkrieg strategy to a slower but miore thorough crushing of the Free People. I did not know that.

I am also surprised to see you write that the Free can win on one turn. How is that, even with spectacularly inept Shadow play? The Free armies cannot enter Shadow Regions until "At War" which alone takes several turns.

[mrweasely]

animalmother said:

I am also surprised to see you write that the Free can win on one turn. How is that, even with spectacularly inept Shadow play? The Free armies cannot enter Shadow Regions until "At War" which alone takes several turns.

Oh its sillyness, the shadow has to really cooperate by pushing around not-at-war Free armies, which then retreat offensively. I'm too lazy to google up the original post, but if I remember right the Free could end turn 1 with four shadow strongholds under their control.

MG said:

If you wish to make your own game, go ahead, but it means your results and experience are off key with everyone else. Many of the playtesters are in this hole because a lage chunk of the games they have played are with the wrong rules. Well, less developed rules anyway.

That's fun. You learn stuff that way. When I gave the Free 10 extra musters of armies on turn 0, and they still couldn't get FPMV, that's when people learned: its not a troops thing, its an energy thing.

I don't remember the "Commonwealth" proposal, and being a yank, I don't really grasp the fine grained divisions among the tan guys in Axis & Allies.

[magicgeek]

aw com onnn'

It was perfect.

That was the name of the thread.

Perfect.

It is all set in stone now, back on BGG.

Think I might look it up.. . .

[magicgeek]

Perfect


Turn 1
Muster Sauron
Muster Isenguard
Muster Troll at Dol Guldur
Muster Saruman
Muster 3 for Saruman
Muster 2 Riders for Saruman
Muster Witch King in Dol Guldur

Turn 2
Event A New Power is Rising
Event Orc’s are Multiplying Again!
Army Dol Guldur to Eastern Mirkwood : Sth to Nth Dunland
Army Eastern Mirkwood to Old Forest Rd : Nth Dunland to Moria
Sword Probe Woodland Realm
Army Moria to Dimrill Dale : Mt Gundabad to Eagles Eyrie
Sword Probe Lorien
Event The Black Captain takes Command of Woodland Realm
Sword Conquer Dale

Turn 3
Sword Probe Erebor, leaving 1 in Dale
Sword Conquer Erebor
Sword Attack The Iron Hills
Event Ring Wraiths are Abroad. 5 Nazgul to Lorien. WK attacks the Fords of Isen
Sword Probe Helms Deep
Sword Conquer Helms Deep
Sword Attack Westemnet
Sword Conquer Edoras
Event The Fighting Uruk Hai pillage Lorien with Deadly Strife



Turn 3 is the dream.

The Witch King plays cards in every battle, save the last.
There is even a safety army at Eagles Eyrie.

[magicgeek]

Mr Weasleys response was :=)

Turn 1
Muster: Gondor @ Defcon 1
Muster: Gondor @ War
Army: Osgiliath -> Ithilien, Pelargir -> W. Harondor
Army: Umbar -> Near Harad, Minas Morgul -> Gorgoroth
Army: Ithilien -> Minas Morgul, W. Harondor -> Umbar
FP@4

I know what you're thinking: that will be too d**n slow, since the SP can easily win on the third ADR of the game!
Turn 1
7 dice to hunt pool
Char: FSP moves, hunted (7 hits) eye, corruption=7
Char: hide the fellowship
Char: FSP moves, hunted (7 hits) eye, corruption=14
SP Ring Victory

[magicgeek]

But then Mr Weasley won with

. . .

Actually, in this game that just happened, the FP won a Resounding military victory, capturing & holding an unprecenedented 8 victory points of shadow strongholds on the very first turn of the game!


SP1: Sauron declares War!
FP1: army moves
Pelargir -> W. Harondor
Lorien -> Dimril Dale (leaving one regular to guard Lorien)
SP2: Moria attacks Dimril Dale
Elves fight a round wihtout consequence then decide to 'forward retreat' towards Dol Guldur. Elves are two steps from war.
SP3: army moves
Dimril Dale -> Parth Celebrant
Minas Morgul -> N. Ithilien
SP4: N. Ithilien attacks Osgiliath
Gondor 'forward retreats' to S. Ithililien. Gondor activates and is one step from war.
FP2: Muster Gondor to War!
SP5: army moves
Umbar -> Near Harad
Dol Guldur -> E. Mirkwood
FP3: army moves
S. Ithilien -> Minas Morgul
W. Harondor -> Umbar.
Free People have 4 victory points, and it ain't over yet...
SP6: Parth Celebrant attacks Lorien
elves fight field battle with no casualties, then retreat to Dimril Dale.
Sauron earns 2 victory points of his own.
Elves are at War!
FP4: army moves
Dimril Dale -> Moria
Anduin Vale -> Dol Guldur
Free People now have a whopping 8 victory points!
SP7: concedes...

Aw, only 8, I was hoping for 10. Anyone see a way to do it?

[magicgeek]

Actually the whole thread is amazing.

www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/84641

Game designer, playtesters, players, and the BGG admin that killed my account. 7 Country Flags in only 2 pages.

And everything other post is a complete waste of space as far as actual strategy, but what a read !

I was so rude

[magicgeek]

And the 'Commonwealth Idea' was to separate Mordor from the Pits Of Mordor.

so.

Moria, Mt Gundabad & Dol Guldur are a separate nation represented but the C.o.B counter on the politics chart, next to Mordor.

* C.o.B = Commonwealth of Badguys.
** Technically this idea belongs to a Bright Boy, not me.

This has some lovely effects.
The pits of Mordor, are in Mordor.
Nazgul come from Mordor, and run home to Mordor.
The Mouth comes from Mordor.
Costs an extra Muster die to get all Nations to war.


All of this strengthens DEW. Lots.Not that it matters.
Gondor gets attacked, like it is meant to.

XX XX
And, The fact that the rest of the world can not distinguish between the different 'Tan' pieces, is fantastic.
We don't get hated, we get ignored.

I won a 108 player late night nukular war once. (TRUE)
5 millions of us left
I can mark it on the map of the future.