Ents teh suck.

[mrweasely]

The Ents suck too badly to use in most games.

If everything goes according to plan, and the enemy stands right next to the Entwood, each Ent card does 10 dice @5+, or 3.33 hits on average. The enemy can just make up 2.00 hits of this by mustering in Isengard, and that doesn't consume a card.

Remember that it took 1 action die to get the ents into play, and that muster has almost no effect.

Also remember that the fireworks can't start until Gandalf the White enters play.

On balance, the only application of Ents is with guile and trickery, and its hard to be "tricky" when the deck only ever gives you one Ent card per game.

At the very least, the ents should start the game in play, or putting them in play recruits two ents instead of one.

At most the rules should be scrapped and rewritten from scratch.

[theimmortal]

I'm sure you've taken this into consideration, but the one muster that brings them into play DOES shut down the Voice. Of course, this is only somewhat useful if you can bring them in incredibly early.

Plus, the Ents are a lot better if you consider the fact that, if timed correctly, playing them costs ZERO dice (so long as you use the ability to play another Character card from having a Companion in Fangorn). But yeah, they are definitely hard to use.

That said, I still like the Expansion Ents WAAAY better than the original Ents.

[mrweasely]

Funny, I prefer the original ents.

I'm not as jazzed about vox saruman as some, so maybe that colors my contempt. Often I find mustering an elite and Dunlendings in Dunland better serves my purposes than vox.

The muster to get the faction in play is very expensive for the FP, and for actual damage, the timing of the "zero dice" needed to activate has to be very precise, sometimes sucking up a valuable sword result.

[magicgeek]

I find this VERY strange.

The Ents in the expansion incapacitate Saruman.
Saruman was the strongest muster effect in the game.

Mustering the Ents is the best use of a muster on turn 1-2.
Not getting the Ents on turn 1-2 means the Free should lose.
Yes, I think it is that strong.

Maybe this is purely because I know how to use Saruman better than the average smurf, but, I have certainly lost because I didn't get the Ents when I should have.

The thing about stopping the Voice is that it also shuts down the leadership aspect of Saruman. Suddenly all of that leadership from the wolves just doesn't exist.

If I have the ability to remake the Wolves, or even make a third set of wolves, the game is OVER. Grey /Shire + DolAmroth + Rohan + Lorien + Rivendell = 12 points. Gandalf doesn't stop Wolf leadership. The only thing they were missing was garrison troops and cannon fodder. Enter Hillmen, Moria + Mt Gundabad and this really is VERY easy.

If a companion + Ents is in Fanghorn before the voice, using the voice actually lessens the number of units in Orthanc.
3 guys in Isengaurd = 1 in Orthanc ( & 1 Ent)
3 guys in Isengaurd = 1 in Orthanc ( & 1 Ent)
2 wolves in Orthanc = ( & 1 Ent)

So if you do the sequence of 3 musters, there is also 3 Ents, obvious I know but stay with me.

3 ents = 15 extra dice = 5 Hits

5 Hits - 2 Wolves = 1 Hit below starting.

The thing about Orthanc is that it always had trouble taking out Rohan and holding it. Orthanc never really had quite enough troops. I suppose at the point where they unleash the Ents and you take pain you could just downgrade all your Wolves and remake some wolves (and Ents) but what was the original point?

Wow, 4 extra guys in Dunland (and 1 less in Orthanc) for 3 Muster Dice? Suddenly the new Ents make the maths just awful.

I like the new rules for the Ents, BIG TIME.
They are the best upgrade in the expansion.

Wiping out the random guys left after Rohan means the Ents are where the Free can actually win the game. A FPMV is really easy after the Ents clear the middle of the board, and cleanse Orthanc.
Gandalf goes to the Fords, makes an army by cheating and conquers Orthanc.

The Ents can now be used to defend Lorien. This makes sense to me.

The Ents can Kill the Balrog and let the Elves conquer Moria.
Surely this is 'Trickery' ?

[mrweasely]

magicgeek said:

The Ents in the expansion incapacitate Saruman.
Saruman was the strongest muster effect in the game.

I prefer to recruit via cards and inital forces, myself. Sure, I do use the voice, after the cards are gone, but in fully 50% of games I don't get enough musters even to keep up with minion, card, and siege demands. I certainly wouldn't throw a muster into bringing out the Ents without an Ent card in hand.

The thing about stopping the Voice is that it also shuts down the leadership aspect of Saruman. Suddenly all of that leadership from the wolves just doesn't exist.

I'm confused. Are you saying the mustering of the Ent faction automatically zeroes Warg leadership? Boy, I have been undervalueing the Ents!

I still pretty much believe that the free's early musters should go to defending Galadriel, and Sauron should hope to blitz Lorien fast. 5th die is key for the Free. If enough Ent cards are available that they can mount a defense of Lorien, then muster Ents. More likely is some combination of Galadriel and Legolas.

[magicgeek]

Getting the Ents IS defending Galadriel.

If the wolves never get made 'all of that leadership doesn't exist' and Galadriel is happy.

The easiest way to get a 10 stack on Lorien is Voicex3 times, Sth to Nth to Moria to Dimril, Attack Lorien.

7 dice (OK plus 2xMusters for Isengaurd + Saruman)

Get the Ents and that just wont happen.
Stopping the Voice also protects Rivendell + Grey Havens, two very weak strongholds, and frees up more Elven reinforcements, which Galadriel also wants.

[mrweasely]

Hm.... you may have a point.

[mrweasely]

There's two problems with that.

1) You don't need Voice of Saruman to rush Lorien, there are millions of ways to do it. It seems like half the shadow strategy deck is excellent for a Lorien rush. E.g. veldrin.proboards22.com/index.cgi?board=tactics&action=display&thread=1156980984

2) Ents can't actively defend Lorien if Gandalf the Grey is still futzing around with the Fellowship, all they can do is store up their anger for later. But that's even irrellevant, since Vox is just one of many good ways to attack the golden wood.

Tonight, I used a lone wolf mustered into N. Dunland, plus Shadows on the Misty Mountains, racing the elven ability to get to war: four dice, only one of which was a muster (OK plus 3 musters for Saruman & Politics, still noticably smaller than your 5.5+2). Galadriel got 1 muster before she got torched, and Lorien never rolled more than 3 combat dice.

In the general case, I would rather have elites in N. Dunland, with their organic leadership and ability to control the ebb and flow of siege warfare, than get two regulars and a "bonus" regular way down in sleepy old Isengard. I'll take +10% chance of killing Galadriel fast over that bonus regular most days.
_________________
Do you still ALWAYS send Dol Guldur towards DEW? I don't. I consider it my most strategically placed initial army, markedly above Isengard, and bigger to boot.

[ira212]

mrweasely said:

In the general case, I would rather have elites in N. Dunland, with their organic leadership and ability to control the ebb and flow of siege warfare

How does the warg have an "ability to control the ebb and flow of siege warfare" ?

[mrweasely]

An elite can either be 2 hp, or it can be 1 hp and an additional round of combat. It can decide this dynamically, after its already been mustered, depending on how the battle is going.

Also, mass Wargs turn We Come To Kill into the best shadow combat card in the game.

Also, they have leadership, and leadership early when Nazgul are few and far between.

Wargs are the bomb biggity.

[magister]

Keep in mind that the Ents' existance, even if they are not used, keeps the Shadow player on his toes- if he doesn't always keep at least 4 or 5 hits worth of troops in Orthanc, he might lose Saruman. Just knowing that ties up some Isengard forces.

I've played about 16 post-expansion games, I think, and as Free People I always bring out the Ents as soon as possible to shut down the Voice. (And as Shadow I use Saruman as much as possible before the Ents shut me down... which is also dictated by wanting to make it harder for Galadriel to come out. My one complaint about the expansion is there's much less variety in the early game- went from shadow choosing to rush one of MT, Lorien, or Rohan, to always starting with Saruman.)

[mrweasely]

Funny, I almost always rush Lorien, usually with Dol Guldur. Though hunting the [1/1/1] strongholds is also effective, and for that vox Saruman is good.

[magister]

I'm going to try a Lorien rush next time (if the dice favor it) I think, for variety... Lorien just seems to have become too tough a nut to crack, since you can recruit Galadriel into it even if it's under siege, and then recruit elves while it's under siege. My last Shadow game, after crushing Rohan I smashed Woodland Realm and Rivendell and left Lorien mostly alone- softer targets. (And, the FP had been really lucky corruptionwise and Lorien as a waypoint was uninportant, they weren't corrupt yet so they didn't stop.)

[magister]

(Rushing Lorien with Dol Guldor was, pre-xpac, the winning strategy, I think- certainly one of my opponents did it to me d**n near every time. But the xpac seems to have been designed to make it less attractive.)

[mrweasely]

Its more expensive because the payoff of success is much higher.