Post by magicgeek on Aug 9, 2006 3:08:03 GMT 1
Magic Geek rolls his opening dice, and looks up at his grinning opponent.
'Turn 1 Aragorn!, dont care what you are doing. Go Gandalf!
Magic Geek looks at cards (move 3 and red tile)
His dice (4 Character, 2 Muster, an Event)
OK, Conquer Rivendell, summon Mr Hunty, ready for turn 2?
Perhaps I should explain for the home viewer.
Event = Move Dol Guldur to Moria
Char = Move North
Char = Move North
Muster = Angry Sauron
Char = Poke Rivendell
Char = Conquer Rivendell (One for the Dark Lord!)
Muster = Muster Mr Hunty
Mr Hunty is good because he provides heaps of extra rerolls for the cost of the eyes plus 1/2 an ARMY die.
4 eyes, and 4 rerolls makes Gandalf pre Moria rather nervous.
The Mr Hunty may force a 14 turn game. The Free must consider a Military Victory, something lots of Free players just can't do. This is not a turn 6 shadow race.
The only bad bit is drawing the 1 card that allows you to move 3, and the fact 'Conquer Rivendell' is suspicious. Doing different turn 1 or 2 Rivendell Assaults are entirely possible, unless you place two eyes, roll two eyes and wonder what happened as they Crown the king.
This will never happen if you place 2 eyes.
Getting the Ents, The King and companions everywhere is the automatic first (and/or second turn) for the Free, if at all possible. In those first two turns, why not place 0 eyes, assault Rivendell and set the Mr Hunty on them before they leave? Then march him across the board using spare Army moves.
That way you get 1 reroll for the Mr Hunty, 1 for an Orc, and 1 or 2 for extra Naz, 3 placed eyes and 1 rolled = 4 + 4 for 1 army move per turn. And Rivendell is a Shadow stronghold so one more!
Sure, the first action of each turn the FSP might be able to move once without all of those rerolls, just the Mr Hunty himself. Oh well, the rest of the rerolls walk 1 space and catch up. 4+4 sounds effective. If the FSP want to sprint against that, go ahead. 8 dice needing 5 or more means you miss about 3.9% of the time.
This type of game is incredibly slow. Lots of the companions will die in the FSP. The board will be VERY unevenly defended, and without companions. F!F!F! and the dwarf book are unlikely to occur. And eventually the all powerful Strategy Deck will provide the red troops.
There are many ways of attacking Rivendell early, turn 1 insane, turn 2 is tricky. Obviously the cards and dice are central, but, there are starts where the New Boy works. Assuming no special cards, where to start?
1) Muster Trolls at Moria
2) Muster Sauron
3) Move to Rivendell
4) Conquer Rivendell
5) Muster Mr Hunty
Steps 2 through 5 were in every list, until I discovered the hunty WK does not require sauron to be at war. Suddenly I realised the reason the new boy is good is when you get lucky and actually find them before Moria. Sauron (and the Elves) stay at peace. Armies can march on the FSP. The Bad Guys (tm) can easily be on 9 dice on turn 2. DolGuldur charges into Dimril Dale, and maybe Moria goes north to find rerolls.
What an odd game a full on Rivenbash would be.
Turn 2 place 4 eyes,
Orc, Stronghold, Big dude & naz means 4 rerolls
That is just harsh, all the way from Rivendell to Mordor! The almost empty hunt pool gets the eye's put back in, and Galadriel is dead by now.
You draw two event cards per turn, you can’t fight, musters are taken (as Shadow), and discarding is generally bad. This means events should take half the action dice. You might still roll eyes, so actually they take up slightly more if this level of ridiculous is attempted. At some point there is a limit, but if you are playing against someone that outright refuses to play a free military campaign, I reckon this guy just might work. Using the Mr Hunty leadership to conquer Minas Tirith with a wounded FSP there is classy.
XXX XXXX
The current obvious first play is
1) Muster Isengaud
2) Muster Saruman
3) Muster like crazy
The only real problem is it requires a whole heap of Muster dice.
And a companion in Fanghorn on turn 2 sucks.
Step 3 is better as Muster Dunlendings, but can be done after the companion arrives, so no hurry really, unless there is of course.
Mustering the Balrog is good, you get an elite and the die.
Note WK = No Get Balrog, and Gandalf=No Get Galadriel.
x Plan B x
1) Move Orthanc to Rivendell 1,2,3,4,5,6
2) Muster Isengaurd
3) Conquer Rivendell
4) Muster Mr Hunty
Plan B is a turn 1 Mr Hunty, if you draw the move 3 card. Monsters Roused, Moria, Mt Gundabad and even maybe Dol guldur are options, if you are extra keen.
Mordor Strike Team Alpha would seem far the best way of suppressing Lorien in this type of odd game. The troll from Barad Dur turning up on Galadriels door just as the FSP are about to arrive sounds OK
X X X
Good play in this game can be richly rewarded.
Using the right action dice in the right order is difficult.
Knowing how a lot of the cards work kinda helps too.
For instance, using one of your three wills is a good idea when the bad guys are at war. But if all of them are not at war, that card can't be played by shadow.
Placing eyes on the first turn still sucks tho, as Gandalf is weak in the FSP at that point. Later he can be strong.
Hidden intentions are made by delaying attacks until the end of the turn. Attacking somewhere else first can suck out poisonous combat cards. Knowing how and when flip-flops are going to occur can be devastating, as safe strongholds can suddenly fall. Sometimes the shadow can keep the wrong last dice, often a character or event, and just lose a stronghold.
XXXxxxxXXX
Bad play in this game really hurts.
Charging with armies that are not at war.
Advancing Nations that are attacked the next die.
Not leaving a dude in the Fords of Isen/Os Giliath.
Attacking strength without leadership.
Not using rings. Using Rings.
Actually, using rings is a very good example.
If you leave the last shadow die as a bad die on the first couple of turns, often you get an extra muster with a ring. With two dice, if you are planning on using a ring and a muster to summon a minion, use the ring first. Mine went away with the new card.
XXXXXXXXXxxxxxxxxxXXXXXXX
I have run out of cards with Free. If you play every card in the deck that says draw a card, you will run out eventually. I have seen the Free run out of character cards.
I have run out of cards with Shadow. This is mostly caused by the Witch King going bananas. Then it sucks. The Witch King dies every 4th game. This boring hunty guy sounds far more like yer stay at home kind of chap.
XXX XXX
Galadriel and the Balrog are strong defensive pieces that sit immobile in the middle of the board. The Balrog can make a brief roll headlong down his mountain at Rivendell or Lorien, but only after looking real hard at the Free peoples dice.
The Ents are lumpy.
The voice is turned off.
The Hillmen are crap.
The corsairs . . . hmmm maybe I should try them.
All this means the entire centre strip is trench warfare.
Troops can jump up, run across the open ground and occupy the enemies trenches for a while. And then fight into their home.
All of this means that only the points on the outside of the board are easy.
Grey Havens Shire Rivendell Dale Wr Erebor Pelagir Dol Amroth
13 points. How hard is it to take 10 ?
X X X
One of the real joys of this game is that most of the rules are extraordinarily clear. I do very much appreciate just how explicitly clear the rules are, now that I know this particular corner a little bit better.
I once convinced my opponent that since it specifically says one at a time, this must mean Orthanc can get to Moria with the move 2 armies up to 2, with a quick stop in Sth Dunland.
Seemed a pretty good move to me.
But, I wanted to know, so I looked up the rules.
I mean it was so utterly, specifically not allowed it was amazing.
The final bit of the rule book seemed to read, 'and magic geek loses so completely he might as well give up on the next couple of rules arguments with himself.'
Always 5 dice max is quite blunt.
The physicality of rolling 5 dice is purely because they supply 5 dice. I have a couple more lying around.
The 'We Come To Kill' ruling is wrong, so I am happy to disagree with this one too. I mean, if you get <!10!> elites together, it should be more special than five.
Six dice on the fellowship seems quite reasonable if you are that focused. Six eyes just should be more looking than 5 eyes.
Placing 4 and rolling 2, or even 3 is quite feasible
Moria+DUDE+orc+3xNazgul is not hard either.
XXXXXXXXXXXXX
I like the way the rules are written. Everything is so ridiculously precise. Free Peoples Character Event Card Back. Wow, in magic its just a card. 'Free Peoples Character Event Card Back' really rolls of the tongue doesn't it?
Never thought I would be bothered with that type of gumpf, but, when paying A Power too Ordinary, I have turned them face down, sorted out the Character cards and the "Army" cards and then paid one from each.
The fact that "Muster" cards actually existed as anything other than a die cost distinction never got noticed. This is because it never gets used. Why is there no ' And your little dog too!' by paying a muster card? Odd Huh?
Tom Bobtail and A Power To Ordinary may cause agony on which is your worst card. And they are worth playing. The Free are better off not drawing them once the Elves and North are at war. They are weak, once you have worked out the maths.
XXX
It is incredibly difficult to make fun of these rules, go ahead and try.
If an elephant, a troll and a wolf are hanging out in a bar, and they drink the Spirit of Mordor, do all three nations go down on the political track?
If you think the above is making fun of the rules, you really dont stay in much. Stupid things may result in a couple of combinations, but they are hard to find. This is why Dodgey Spells stands out so much. I mean, it aint Games Workshop, or Descent.
Claiming that if only one side fights, it is not a battle, it is only an attack. Is just plain stoopid. Dreadful Spells not killing companions is silly and lame.
page 14 Elimination of leaders
'If all the army units involved in a battle are eliminated, then all Leaders (including Characters) that were part of that Army are also immediately removed from play.'
page 16 Advancing A political Position
* Every time a Nations army is attacked (each battle counts as one attack regardless of the number of rounds fought)
Both say 'battle' , only one says 'attack'. Not saying 'attack' isn't convincing to me. Where in the rules is Dreadful spells an attack, but not a battle? Either D.Spells is an Attack / Battle , so adjust the political track, or it isn't. The FAQ is very specific, it is also ridiculous.
I know it is explicit in the FAQ. I think it is explicit in the rules itself.
The entire problem with this justification of the rules is that it does not make sense in the gameworld.
The example I give is surrounding, slaughtering, and annihilating with deadly spells. The deadly spells sounded like the nasty part. Apparently some spells dont work on Dwarves, Humans, Elves or Hobbits. They sound dreadful.
Scouts = Zero rounds of combat, but it is still a battle. Deadly spells is still a battle, it just = Zero rounds. Tell you what, all the evil sorcerers on the free side get to fight as well.
xx XXX xxx
The idea that the Ents are not Free units is just plain wrong.
If that were the case, attacking Moria with them should not send Sauron to war.
Enormous trees attacking and dismantling a stronghold is an attack, and a battle, expansion says so.
But, What happens to the Nazgul stacked with Saruman?
eg.
Rohan forms up.
Rohan Charges !
Rohan surrounds and battles Orthanc.
Ents arrive and kill the last hillman, but the WK and 2 Nagul survive.
Good thing it was only ancient hardwood ripping apart the bad wizard and his tower. The Orthanc poker game only needs 1 replacement counter.
Actually the FAQ now says 'They are all dead, Dave.'
XXXXXxxxxxXXXXX
Every single 'special thing' happens in Fanghorn and south.
North of Fanghorn is 12 VP.
South of Fanghorn is 8 VP.
The basic reinforcement cards are biased.
All the South reinforcements are Elite + Leader.
The North reinforcements are just weaker.
Every Elf reinforce is half strength and draw a card.
Well, except the Grey Havens one, and that is because it mostly appears in the south. The full strength Dwarf one stands out.
Swords in Eriador is my call for strongest Free card.
(I know everyone disagrees with me, what's new?)
Trying to compare North against South just doesn't work because there is nothing in the north to compare. NOTHING. It is not like there is a path of woses from Bree to Carrock. This is why the new north card is excellent.
The New Rangers card is exactly what is needed. It creates a seed army, like Dead Men, but, it does not force a retreat.
There needs to be at least two more cards like the New Power Rangers card. I like the idea of the Drowned.
'Place 3 dead Blue units in an empty coastal area'
XXXxx x xxxXXX
What happens to the Nazgul when the Spirit of Mordor wipes out their troops?
1) They die along with the troops
2) They survive because it was not a battle, and they can be places without troops.
3) They die because they are leaders, but the WK survives because he is a minion.
Personally,
I think I will take door number 1, coz, No way are the trees going to be happy to kill Wolves, Men, and Orcs, and leave the man in black alone.
XX XX XX
The shadow put in an honest day labour, build a decent sized horde, and go crush rocks all over the board.
The free hide, terrified, behind big rocks, leap out, run into the opposing trench and demand that they have instantly won.
The free seem to feel they are playing soccer.
X X X
Sauron would like to complain that his side has to lose 4 of 18 to lose, and the cheaty "Free" have to lose fully 10 of their 20?
And how come "The Free" get all these companions and characters? How come the flipside dont get to chuck something in a pond in the shire to just win?
XXXX
Sometimes being suppressed on BGG is actually an advantage. ;D
Listening to the Playtesters talk about what the rules should have been is actually quite pointless. They are so extraordinarily focused on how they believe the game MUST be played that they just doesn't realise when there is a completely different way.
Dew North is the obvious example. The Mr Hunty will be the next. I like the new guy because he causes confusion. Don't get me wrong, I still believe the WK is stronger, but it is interesting that this is way better than the 'Best Case' scenario being authoritatively discussed elsewhere.
All I'm sayin is the new guy's best is a whole lot better than some say.
The worst bit about BGG was writing up 'Variant's.
Inherently, the first person to respond will not have played the variant, but will be quite happy to say the original is better. Someone else that likes the original game will agree that the variant is stupid. And the original poster spits a dummy about all these people not wanting to actually play variants, haven't actually played theirs, and why are they bothering?
I suppose my problem was with people talking very loudly about how everything is better the way it was back home.
I truly realised this when in Rome. I was so offended by two Hawaiian shirted offenses to humanity that I pretended to not speak my native tongue while they shouted at me if I knew 'American'.
'Non parley Inglaysie'
XXXX xxx XXXX
The new balance is very similar to the old days, it just has an extra couple of kinks.
* Fanatic level players can win with DEW North, or they can enjoy the game.
* Good players will see very tight games where the Shadow wins if they avoid the new toys.
* Entry level players will wonder how the hell the Free can lose, as Minas Tirith builds 2 siege Towers again.
Having the playtesters, designers, artists, proofreaders and their cat all online telling everyone this game is wonderful, is just wonderful. I reread some of the early gumpf on how perfect the original game was. Amazing that such perfection could be improved really. Were the Hillmen and Corsairs faction designed to be improved? ;D
This is not a discussion as such. It is me just typing stuff down while I think about it. Me and discussions about this game dont go very well. Generally people think I am wrong, and a very long way away. Until I knock on their door and beat them, that is.
XXXXX XXXXX
Turn 5 Ring Dunk! Magic Geek's Shadow reached 8 on A dew North, Lorien Held. (what else do you do with 5 character die on turn 1?)
thats a TURN 5 dunk, Fastest I have ever heard.
XX XX
Then, in a completely odd game,
Turn 8 Magic Geeks' Shadow crush Gondor, FSP can see the mountain.
X X X
Finally the new guy stepped up. And then the game surprised me.
At last I rolled eyes, I rolled well and revealled the FSP just out of Rivendell. The Hunty King finally got to shine. And my, what an odd game.
Normally the Free pass multiple times per turn. In this game the SHADOW double passed.
6 eyes! And I kept finding the FSP, and kept nailing them.
Elves went to war, Galadriel arrived, Dol Guldur moved to Dimrill Dale. And nothing happened.
The Fellowship was broken, and the last 3 companions forced to leave in Parth Celebrant. Corruption was high.
5 Wolves charged Helms Deep, Double Ents wiped Saruman, and the 5 wolves and a Hillman fled back to the Fords with a ring. The King and an army were about to eradicate them with Help unlooked for.
Still nothing happened.
Minas T became the place to be as it was obviously where the FSP needed to hole up.
The battles were tight. One defender was left as Aragorn and Gandalf made a strike against the besiegers, survived a counterstrike, and were eradicated by deadly spells.
Game was conceded by the Free on turn 12. Shadow was on 1 point.
Obviously he still had a chance, but not in the ring race.
Mt Gundabad had 5 guys, as did Dol Guldur. Moria had 3 trolls and a d'orc, Dimrill dale had 3 d'orcs, Nth Dunland had a bad 10 stack, DEW was looking at a 10stack of Easterlings, 5 Wolves and a man were holed up in the Fords, Dol Amroth was looking at a 10stack of South in Lamedon, Minas T was about to disappear.
Everywhere was massed solid defence, with covering support armies.
The complete lack of actual combat was odd. I like the new guy because he forces the Free player to play a game they dont have to normally play. Even if he is weak.
We played an earlier game as well. Turn 8 ring victory. My Shadow on 8VP. Lorien just wouldn't die, and I was trying out some new moves. Some games it just doesn't want to work. And DEW just gets dull.
The Balrog moved and sat on the FSP in both games, but in this game both of them savaged Lorien, then ran away and attacked Woodland realm with three orcs. Well, it almost worked.
XXX XXX
Turn 12 My Free win with 10 corruption and Shadow on 9.
Turn 1 King, Gandalf died in Mordor, Galadriel ate an eye.
Companions had no discernible effect, except the Kings die.
The King was crowned in Pelagir, a stormcrow killed his lone infantry, and the Southrons walked into Pelagir, Lamedon and attacked Dol Amroth to send Gondor to war
I think I should have been a whole lot more comfortable, but Gondor just lay down. Rohan folded too. Every assault worked for him. Minas T did ZERO damage. Last 3 cards were 2 Ents and Dead Men.
I really wanted to do a proper sprint. Instead I looked at a turn 1 King and 3 Eyes and went with the flow.
XXX
Yesterday I type about Power rangers and Anruil and Eagles.
Last night I
* discarded Eagles the turn before Boromir needed them.
* Used Altheas to heal no corruption, instead of freeing Mians T.
* Sent the north to war, Mustered with cards, mustered elites, mustered leaders, drew Rangers and discarded it coz it didn't work any more.
What happens when Bats meets Daring Defiance?
Does Boromirs leadership depend on who is attacking whom?
X X X
Helm's Deep, Pelargir and Dol Amroth are well-defended.
They are all hideous targets, in their own way.
Dol Amroth & Pelagir have
Threat to the South
Grey Company
I am Boromir hear me Roar!
Cirdans ships
Dead Men
Path of Woses
Andruil
And the fact that The King and Boromir go to Gondor. No one specifically goes to DEW.
Gondor just happens to always get enormous battle gods turning up to defend it.
Barad Dur to Dol Amroth is ONE shorter than Barad Dur to Erebor.
You do not have to conquer everywhere to get and hold 3 easy points out of DEW.
The third Nation doesn't even have to go to war.
The Dwarves have 1 reinforement into Erebor.
The North have 2 Regulars into Dale.
And the New Power Rangers card.
Helms Deep and Edoras are AWFUL.
Ents, Companions, Lorien, Gondor, more full strength muster cards that go more places, and lots of places to muster.
Helms Deep is the single most liberated Stronghold.
Edoras and Pelagir are the most liberated towns.
Dol Amroth is hard to get to and has the most reinforcement cards in the game. I count 6 different cards that can and do get used to make troops to defend Dol Amroth.
All of those cards are cards you just dont have to worry about north of Fanghorn. South of Fanghorn those cards can go find you.
If you take Pelagir last, Dol Amroth is untaken, so is Minas T.
Taking Pelagir last can also mean the King and 10 troops just happen to be standing in Pelagir, looking at their collective watches.
Dead Men can be just a way to get strider to coronation on turn 1. The fact it gets 3 guys, is a forced retreat and might cause 1-6 casualties is just a bonus really.
If you think Andruil is irrelevant, try taking Dol Amroth with the King inside it. Take 4 hits on the first spin, see if it matters.
If 20 guys is all it takes you to reliably take out Gondor, maybe Boromir doesn't go there in your games.
The political track argument is stoopid. eg, card is power because the political track goes down one. Gondor doesn't have those cards, it has a fort with men in it instead.
Would the North prefer to start one lower on the Political track, but have a fort in the Old Forest road, and have 2 guys in it?
XXX
Shadow looks at his palantir.
Shadow looks at his rule book.Shadow looks at his palantir.
Shadow looks at his rule book.Shadow looks at his palantir.
Shadow looks at his rule bo.........
What happens when a player runs out of cards? (both to draw & play)
They cannot spend the die, so the game ends in stalemate.
In Chess, 'King only' = You dont get to win
In Magic, 'Worldgorger without the kill' = You dont get to win
In WotR, 'Staring at your rulebook' = You dont get to win
Instead of you getting a turn and winning, how about I dont finish my turn, so you dont get a turn, causing stalemate.
This is the same as king only stalemate in chess, the king cant move, so the turn is never passed, so the game is over.
Now I know that chess and magic are inferior games because they do not have action dice, but can you see the analogy?
I took the honourable way out and walked into corruption death instead. I could have placed myself in palantir recursion the next turn.
I know the obvious solution is to just ignore them, but, there are implications that just are not in the rule book.
eg
I have 1 card in my hand and none to draw.
'Must' I play the card in my hand?
If I cannot play it, does my opponent see it?
Actually the answer is in the FAQ, discard the die for no effect. Pity it aint in the rules. My rulebook seems to be the same as when it was printed. Funny how the FAQ seems to change.
'House Rules' are when some houses know them, and some dont. Generally people find out about 'House Rules' just after they wreck the current game.
I try not to make huge leaps into bits of the rules that aren't there, especially with card that aren't there. This question spent a long time unanswered, so I reckon very few houses know it. Nice to know it is at least in the FAQ.
**** The game that caused this confusion . . .
58 dead blue hit points, only 2 dead leaders !
2 turn stalls
0 shadow cards left, 2+2 for Free
5 Elven rings used
Shadow on 8 (Witch King and Mouth lost)
Mirror got the King. Galadriel Summoned the entire elven force pool, which died. King and Mr B die in M-T.
Ents wipe lots of Wolves, Dol Amroth pops.
Legolas + Dwarves+ North clean house, and form up on The old forest road to charge Dol Guldur.
Helms deep links with Gandalf running from Edoras.
Wolves take Helms deep.
Rivendell charges Moria, and jams.
Gandalf retakes Edoras, kills Mouth + WK.
Gandlaf travels through a day to Pelagir, and charges Umbar.
Then Frodo Died in Mordor to forced movement.
He rolled ridiculous from Dunadan forest on and it all went rapidly downhill. Smeagol turned up twice just after gollum.
I even healed twice at Mians T, and then everything just kinda stopped. Lots of things to complain about as far as dice, but ya get that. The remains of the hunt pool was savage, all eyes and all bad specials. only 2 others, and 2 friendly.
Must Rember ** First Muster Ent **
He did a pretty cool play on the second last turn by using a ring to make the 5 eyes in the hunt lethal, which meant I sucked 1 point instead, and looked for a Free Military Win.
'Turn 1 Aragorn!, dont care what you are doing. Go Gandalf!
Magic Geek looks at cards (move 3 and red tile)
His dice (4 Character, 2 Muster, an Event)
OK, Conquer Rivendell, summon Mr Hunty, ready for turn 2?
Perhaps I should explain for the home viewer.
Event = Move Dol Guldur to Moria
Char = Move North
Char = Move North
Muster = Angry Sauron
Char = Poke Rivendell
Char = Conquer Rivendell (One for the Dark Lord!)
Muster = Muster Mr Hunty
Mr Hunty is good because he provides heaps of extra rerolls for the cost of the eyes plus 1/2 an ARMY die.
4 eyes, and 4 rerolls makes Gandalf pre Moria rather nervous.
The Mr Hunty may force a 14 turn game. The Free must consider a Military Victory, something lots of Free players just can't do. This is not a turn 6 shadow race.
The only bad bit is drawing the 1 card that allows you to move 3, and the fact 'Conquer Rivendell' is suspicious. Doing different turn 1 or 2 Rivendell Assaults are entirely possible, unless you place two eyes, roll two eyes and wonder what happened as they Crown the king.
This will never happen if you place 2 eyes.
Getting the Ents, The King and companions everywhere is the automatic first (and/or second turn) for the Free, if at all possible. In those first two turns, why not place 0 eyes, assault Rivendell and set the Mr Hunty on them before they leave? Then march him across the board using spare Army moves.
That way you get 1 reroll for the Mr Hunty, 1 for an Orc, and 1 or 2 for extra Naz, 3 placed eyes and 1 rolled = 4 + 4 for 1 army move per turn. And Rivendell is a Shadow stronghold so one more!
Sure, the first action of each turn the FSP might be able to move once without all of those rerolls, just the Mr Hunty himself. Oh well, the rest of the rerolls walk 1 space and catch up. 4+4 sounds effective. If the FSP want to sprint against that, go ahead. 8 dice needing 5 or more means you miss about 3.9% of the time.
This type of game is incredibly slow. Lots of the companions will die in the FSP. The board will be VERY unevenly defended, and without companions. F!F!F! and the dwarf book are unlikely to occur. And eventually the all powerful Strategy Deck will provide the red troops.
There are many ways of attacking Rivendell early, turn 1 insane, turn 2 is tricky. Obviously the cards and dice are central, but, there are starts where the New Boy works. Assuming no special cards, where to start?
1) Muster Trolls at Moria
2) Muster Sauron
3) Move to Rivendell
4) Conquer Rivendell
5) Muster Mr Hunty
Steps 2 through 5 were in every list, until I discovered the hunty WK does not require sauron to be at war. Suddenly I realised the reason the new boy is good is when you get lucky and actually find them before Moria. Sauron (and the Elves) stay at peace. Armies can march on the FSP. The Bad Guys (tm) can easily be on 9 dice on turn 2. DolGuldur charges into Dimril Dale, and maybe Moria goes north to find rerolls.
What an odd game a full on Rivenbash would be.
Turn 2 place 4 eyes,
Orc, Stronghold, Big dude & naz means 4 rerolls
That is just harsh, all the way from Rivendell to Mordor! The almost empty hunt pool gets the eye's put back in, and Galadriel is dead by now.
You draw two event cards per turn, you can’t fight, musters are taken (as Shadow), and discarding is generally bad. This means events should take half the action dice. You might still roll eyes, so actually they take up slightly more if this level of ridiculous is attempted. At some point there is a limit, but if you are playing against someone that outright refuses to play a free military campaign, I reckon this guy just might work. Using the Mr Hunty leadership to conquer Minas Tirith with a wounded FSP there is classy.
XXX XXXX
The current obvious first play is
1) Muster Isengaud
2) Muster Saruman
3) Muster like crazy
The only real problem is it requires a whole heap of Muster dice.
And a companion in Fanghorn on turn 2 sucks.
Step 3 is better as Muster Dunlendings, but can be done after the companion arrives, so no hurry really, unless there is of course.
Mustering the Balrog is good, you get an elite and the die.
Note WK = No Get Balrog, and Gandalf=No Get Galadriel.
x Plan B x
1) Move Orthanc to Rivendell 1,2,3,4,5,6
2) Muster Isengaurd
3) Conquer Rivendell
4) Muster Mr Hunty
Plan B is a turn 1 Mr Hunty, if you draw the move 3 card. Monsters Roused, Moria, Mt Gundabad and even maybe Dol guldur are options, if you are extra keen.
Mordor Strike Team Alpha would seem far the best way of suppressing Lorien in this type of odd game. The troll from Barad Dur turning up on Galadriels door just as the FSP are about to arrive sounds OK
X X X
Good play in this game can be richly rewarded.
Using the right action dice in the right order is difficult.
Knowing how a lot of the cards work kinda helps too.
For instance, using one of your three wills is a good idea when the bad guys are at war. But if all of them are not at war, that card can't be played by shadow.
Placing eyes on the first turn still sucks tho, as Gandalf is weak in the FSP at that point. Later he can be strong.
Hidden intentions are made by delaying attacks until the end of the turn. Attacking somewhere else first can suck out poisonous combat cards. Knowing how and when flip-flops are going to occur can be devastating, as safe strongholds can suddenly fall. Sometimes the shadow can keep the wrong last dice, often a character or event, and just lose a stronghold.
XXXxxxxXXX
Bad play in this game really hurts.
Charging with armies that are not at war.
Advancing Nations that are attacked the next die.
Not leaving a dude in the Fords of Isen/Os Giliath.
Attacking strength without leadership.
Not using rings. Using Rings.
Actually, using rings is a very good example.
If you leave the last shadow die as a bad die on the first couple of turns, often you get an extra muster with a ring. With two dice, if you are planning on using a ring and a muster to summon a minion, use the ring first. Mine went away with the new card.
XXXXXXXXXxxxxxxxxxXXXXXXX
I have run out of cards with Free. If you play every card in the deck that says draw a card, you will run out eventually. I have seen the Free run out of character cards.
I have run out of cards with Shadow. This is mostly caused by the Witch King going bananas. Then it sucks. The Witch King dies every 4th game. This boring hunty guy sounds far more like yer stay at home kind of chap.
XXX XXX
Galadriel and the Balrog are strong defensive pieces that sit immobile in the middle of the board. The Balrog can make a brief roll headlong down his mountain at Rivendell or Lorien, but only after looking real hard at the Free peoples dice.
The Ents are lumpy.
The voice is turned off.
The Hillmen are crap.
The corsairs . . . hmmm maybe I should try them.
All this means the entire centre strip is trench warfare.
Troops can jump up, run across the open ground and occupy the enemies trenches for a while. And then fight into their home.
All of this means that only the points on the outside of the board are easy.
Grey Havens Shire Rivendell Dale Wr Erebor Pelagir Dol Amroth
13 points. How hard is it to take 10 ?
X X X
One of the real joys of this game is that most of the rules are extraordinarily clear. I do very much appreciate just how explicitly clear the rules are, now that I know this particular corner a little bit better.
I once convinced my opponent that since it specifically says one at a time, this must mean Orthanc can get to Moria with the move 2 armies up to 2, with a quick stop in Sth Dunland.
Seemed a pretty good move to me.
But, I wanted to know, so I looked up the rules.
I mean it was so utterly, specifically not allowed it was amazing.
The final bit of the rule book seemed to read, 'and magic geek loses so completely he might as well give up on the next couple of rules arguments with himself.'
Always 5 dice max is quite blunt.
The physicality of rolling 5 dice is purely because they supply 5 dice. I have a couple more lying around.
The 'We Come To Kill' ruling is wrong, so I am happy to disagree with this one too. I mean, if you get <!10!> elites together, it should be more special than five.
Six dice on the fellowship seems quite reasonable if you are that focused. Six eyes just should be more looking than 5 eyes.
Placing 4 and rolling 2, or even 3 is quite feasible
Moria+DUDE+orc+3xNazgul is not hard either.
XXXXXXXXXXXXX
I like the way the rules are written. Everything is so ridiculously precise. Free Peoples Character Event Card Back. Wow, in magic its just a card. 'Free Peoples Character Event Card Back' really rolls of the tongue doesn't it?
Never thought I would be bothered with that type of gumpf, but, when paying A Power too Ordinary, I have turned them face down, sorted out the Character cards and the "Army" cards and then paid one from each.
The fact that "Muster" cards actually existed as anything other than a die cost distinction never got noticed. This is because it never gets used. Why is there no ' And your little dog too!' by paying a muster card? Odd Huh?
Tom Bobtail and A Power To Ordinary may cause agony on which is your worst card. And they are worth playing. The Free are better off not drawing them once the Elves and North are at war. They are weak, once you have worked out the maths.
XXX
It is incredibly difficult to make fun of these rules, go ahead and try.
If an elephant, a troll and a wolf are hanging out in a bar, and they drink the Spirit of Mordor, do all three nations go down on the political track?
If you think the above is making fun of the rules, you really dont stay in much. Stupid things may result in a couple of combinations, but they are hard to find. This is why Dodgey Spells stands out so much. I mean, it aint Games Workshop, or Descent.
Claiming that if only one side fights, it is not a battle, it is only an attack. Is just plain stoopid. Dreadful Spells not killing companions is silly and lame.
page 14 Elimination of leaders
'If all the army units involved in a battle are eliminated, then all Leaders (including Characters) that were part of that Army are also immediately removed from play.'
page 16 Advancing A political Position
* Every time a Nations army is attacked (each battle counts as one attack regardless of the number of rounds fought)
Both say 'battle' , only one says 'attack'. Not saying 'attack' isn't convincing to me. Where in the rules is Dreadful spells an attack, but not a battle? Either D.Spells is an Attack / Battle , so adjust the political track, or it isn't. The FAQ is very specific, it is also ridiculous.
I know it is explicit in the FAQ. I think it is explicit in the rules itself.
The entire problem with this justification of the rules is that it does not make sense in the gameworld.
The example I give is surrounding, slaughtering, and annihilating with deadly spells. The deadly spells sounded like the nasty part. Apparently some spells dont work on Dwarves, Humans, Elves or Hobbits. They sound dreadful.
Scouts = Zero rounds of combat, but it is still a battle. Deadly spells is still a battle, it just = Zero rounds. Tell you what, all the evil sorcerers on the free side get to fight as well.
xx XXX xxx
The idea that the Ents are not Free units is just plain wrong.
If that were the case, attacking Moria with them should not send Sauron to war.
Enormous trees attacking and dismantling a stronghold is an attack, and a battle, expansion says so.
But, What happens to the Nazgul stacked with Saruman?
eg.
Rohan forms up.
Rohan Charges !
Rohan surrounds and battles Orthanc.
Ents arrive and kill the last hillman, but the WK and 2 Nagul survive.
Good thing it was only ancient hardwood ripping apart the bad wizard and his tower. The Orthanc poker game only needs 1 replacement counter.
Actually the FAQ now says 'They are all dead, Dave.'
XXXXXxxxxxXXXXX
Every single 'special thing' happens in Fanghorn and south.
North of Fanghorn is 12 VP.
South of Fanghorn is 8 VP.
The basic reinforcement cards are biased.
All the South reinforcements are Elite + Leader.
The North reinforcements are just weaker.
Every Elf reinforce is half strength and draw a card.
Well, except the Grey Havens one, and that is because it mostly appears in the south. The full strength Dwarf one stands out.
Swords in Eriador is my call for strongest Free card.
(I know everyone disagrees with me, what's new?)
Trying to compare North against South just doesn't work because there is nothing in the north to compare. NOTHING. It is not like there is a path of woses from Bree to Carrock. This is why the new north card is excellent.
The New Rangers card is exactly what is needed. It creates a seed army, like Dead Men, but, it does not force a retreat.
There needs to be at least two more cards like the New Power Rangers card. I like the idea of the Drowned.
'Place 3 dead Blue units in an empty coastal area'
XXXxx x xxxXXX
What happens to the Nazgul when the Spirit of Mordor wipes out their troops?
1) They die along with the troops
2) They survive because it was not a battle, and they can be places without troops.
3) They die because they are leaders, but the WK survives because he is a minion.
Personally,
I think I will take door number 1, coz, No way are the trees going to be happy to kill Wolves, Men, and Orcs, and leave the man in black alone.
XX XX XX
The shadow put in an honest day labour, build a decent sized horde, and go crush rocks all over the board.
The free hide, terrified, behind big rocks, leap out, run into the opposing trench and demand that they have instantly won.
The free seem to feel they are playing soccer.
X X X
Sauron would like to complain that his side has to lose 4 of 18 to lose, and the cheaty "Free" have to lose fully 10 of their 20?
And how come "The Free" get all these companions and characters? How come the flipside dont get to chuck something in a pond in the shire to just win?
XXXX
Sometimes being suppressed on BGG is actually an advantage. ;D
Listening to the Playtesters talk about what the rules should have been is actually quite pointless. They are so extraordinarily focused on how they believe the game MUST be played that they just doesn't realise when there is a completely different way.
Dew North is the obvious example. The Mr Hunty will be the next. I like the new guy because he causes confusion. Don't get me wrong, I still believe the WK is stronger, but it is interesting that this is way better than the 'Best Case' scenario being authoritatively discussed elsewhere.
All I'm sayin is the new guy's best is a whole lot better than some say.
The worst bit about BGG was writing up 'Variant's.
Inherently, the first person to respond will not have played the variant, but will be quite happy to say the original is better. Someone else that likes the original game will agree that the variant is stupid. And the original poster spits a dummy about all these people not wanting to actually play variants, haven't actually played theirs, and why are they bothering?
I suppose my problem was with people talking very loudly about how everything is better the way it was back home.
I truly realised this when in Rome. I was so offended by two Hawaiian shirted offenses to humanity that I pretended to not speak my native tongue while they shouted at me if I knew 'American'.
'Non parley Inglaysie'
XXXX xxx XXXX
The new balance is very similar to the old days, it just has an extra couple of kinks.
* Fanatic level players can win with DEW North, or they can enjoy the game.
* Good players will see very tight games where the Shadow wins if they avoid the new toys.
* Entry level players will wonder how the hell the Free can lose, as Minas Tirith builds 2 siege Towers again.
Having the playtesters, designers, artists, proofreaders and their cat all online telling everyone this game is wonderful, is just wonderful. I reread some of the early gumpf on how perfect the original game was. Amazing that such perfection could be improved really. Were the Hillmen and Corsairs faction designed to be improved? ;D
This is not a discussion as such. It is me just typing stuff down while I think about it. Me and discussions about this game dont go very well. Generally people think I am wrong, and a very long way away. Until I knock on their door and beat them, that is.
XXXXX XXXXX
Turn 5 Ring Dunk! Magic Geek's Shadow reached 8 on A dew North, Lorien Held. (what else do you do with 5 character die on turn 1?)
thats a TURN 5 dunk, Fastest I have ever heard.
XX XX
Then, in a completely odd game,
Turn 8 Magic Geeks' Shadow crush Gondor, FSP can see the mountain.
X X X
Finally the new guy stepped up. And then the game surprised me.
At last I rolled eyes, I rolled well and revealled the FSP just out of Rivendell. The Hunty King finally got to shine. And my, what an odd game.
Normally the Free pass multiple times per turn. In this game the SHADOW double passed.
6 eyes! And I kept finding the FSP, and kept nailing them.
Elves went to war, Galadriel arrived, Dol Guldur moved to Dimrill Dale. And nothing happened.
The Fellowship was broken, and the last 3 companions forced to leave in Parth Celebrant. Corruption was high.
5 Wolves charged Helms Deep, Double Ents wiped Saruman, and the 5 wolves and a Hillman fled back to the Fords with a ring. The King and an army were about to eradicate them with Help unlooked for.
Still nothing happened.
Minas T became the place to be as it was obviously where the FSP needed to hole up.
The battles were tight. One defender was left as Aragorn and Gandalf made a strike against the besiegers, survived a counterstrike, and were eradicated by deadly spells.
Game was conceded by the Free on turn 12. Shadow was on 1 point.
Obviously he still had a chance, but not in the ring race.
Mt Gundabad had 5 guys, as did Dol Guldur. Moria had 3 trolls and a d'orc, Dimrill dale had 3 d'orcs, Nth Dunland had a bad 10 stack, DEW was looking at a 10stack of Easterlings, 5 Wolves and a man were holed up in the Fords, Dol Amroth was looking at a 10stack of South in Lamedon, Minas T was about to disappear.
Everywhere was massed solid defence, with covering support armies.
The complete lack of actual combat was odd. I like the new guy because he forces the Free player to play a game they dont have to normally play. Even if he is weak.
We played an earlier game as well. Turn 8 ring victory. My Shadow on 8VP. Lorien just wouldn't die, and I was trying out some new moves. Some games it just doesn't want to work. And DEW just gets dull.
The Balrog moved and sat on the FSP in both games, but in this game both of them savaged Lorien, then ran away and attacked Woodland realm with three orcs. Well, it almost worked.
XXX XXX
Turn 12 My Free win with 10 corruption and Shadow on 9.
Turn 1 King, Gandalf died in Mordor, Galadriel ate an eye.
Companions had no discernible effect, except the Kings die.
The King was crowned in Pelagir, a stormcrow killed his lone infantry, and the Southrons walked into Pelagir, Lamedon and attacked Dol Amroth to send Gondor to war
I think I should have been a whole lot more comfortable, but Gondor just lay down. Rohan folded too. Every assault worked for him. Minas T did ZERO damage. Last 3 cards were 2 Ents and Dead Men.
I really wanted to do a proper sprint. Instead I looked at a turn 1 King and 3 Eyes and went with the flow.
XXX
Yesterday I type about Power rangers and Anruil and Eagles.
Last night I
* discarded Eagles the turn before Boromir needed them.
* Used Altheas to heal no corruption, instead of freeing Mians T.
* Sent the north to war, Mustered with cards, mustered elites, mustered leaders, drew Rangers and discarded it coz it didn't work any more.
What happens when Bats meets Daring Defiance?
Does Boromirs leadership depend on who is attacking whom?
X X X
Helm's Deep, Pelargir and Dol Amroth are well-defended.
They are all hideous targets, in their own way.
Dol Amroth & Pelagir have
Threat to the South
Grey Company
I am Boromir hear me Roar!
Cirdans ships
Dead Men
Path of Woses
Andruil
And the fact that The King and Boromir go to Gondor. No one specifically goes to DEW.
Gondor just happens to always get enormous battle gods turning up to defend it.
Barad Dur to Dol Amroth is ONE shorter than Barad Dur to Erebor.
You do not have to conquer everywhere to get and hold 3 easy points out of DEW.
The third Nation doesn't even have to go to war.
The Dwarves have 1 reinforement into Erebor.
The North have 2 Regulars into Dale.
And the New Power Rangers card.
Helms Deep and Edoras are AWFUL.
Ents, Companions, Lorien, Gondor, more full strength muster cards that go more places, and lots of places to muster.
Helms Deep is the single most liberated Stronghold.
Edoras and Pelagir are the most liberated towns.
Dol Amroth is hard to get to and has the most reinforcement cards in the game. I count 6 different cards that can and do get used to make troops to defend Dol Amroth.
All of those cards are cards you just dont have to worry about north of Fanghorn. South of Fanghorn those cards can go find you.
If you take Pelagir last, Dol Amroth is untaken, so is Minas T.
Taking Pelagir last can also mean the King and 10 troops just happen to be standing in Pelagir, looking at their collective watches.
Dead Men can be just a way to get strider to coronation on turn 1. The fact it gets 3 guys, is a forced retreat and might cause 1-6 casualties is just a bonus really.
If you think Andruil is irrelevant, try taking Dol Amroth with the King inside it. Take 4 hits on the first spin, see if it matters.
If 20 guys is all it takes you to reliably take out Gondor, maybe Boromir doesn't go there in your games.
The political track argument is stoopid. eg, card is power because the political track goes down one. Gondor doesn't have those cards, it has a fort with men in it instead.
Would the North prefer to start one lower on the Political track, but have a fort in the Old Forest road, and have 2 guys in it?
XXX
Shadow looks at his palantir.
Shadow looks at his rule book.Shadow looks at his palantir.
Shadow looks at his rule book.Shadow looks at his palantir.
Shadow looks at his rule bo.........
What happens when a player runs out of cards? (both to draw & play)
They cannot spend the die, so the game ends in stalemate.
In Chess, 'King only' = You dont get to win
In Magic, 'Worldgorger without the kill' = You dont get to win
In WotR, 'Staring at your rulebook' = You dont get to win
Instead of you getting a turn and winning, how about I dont finish my turn, so you dont get a turn, causing stalemate.
This is the same as king only stalemate in chess, the king cant move, so the turn is never passed, so the game is over.
Now I know that chess and magic are inferior games because they do not have action dice, but can you see the analogy?
I took the honourable way out and walked into corruption death instead. I could have placed myself in palantir recursion the next turn.
I know the obvious solution is to just ignore them, but, there are implications that just are not in the rule book.
eg
I have 1 card in my hand and none to draw.
'Must' I play the card in my hand?
If I cannot play it, does my opponent see it?
Actually the answer is in the FAQ, discard the die for no effect. Pity it aint in the rules. My rulebook seems to be the same as when it was printed. Funny how the FAQ seems to change.
'House Rules' are when some houses know them, and some dont. Generally people find out about 'House Rules' just after they wreck the current game.
I try not to make huge leaps into bits of the rules that aren't there, especially with card that aren't there. This question spent a long time unanswered, so I reckon very few houses know it. Nice to know it is at least in the FAQ.
**** The game that caused this confusion . . .
58 dead blue hit points, only 2 dead leaders !
2 turn stalls
0 shadow cards left, 2+2 for Free
5 Elven rings used
Shadow on 8 (Witch King and Mouth lost)
Mirror got the King. Galadriel Summoned the entire elven force pool, which died. King and Mr B die in M-T.
Ents wipe lots of Wolves, Dol Amroth pops.
Legolas + Dwarves+ North clean house, and form up on The old forest road to charge Dol Guldur.
Helms deep links with Gandalf running from Edoras.
Wolves take Helms deep.
Rivendell charges Moria, and jams.
Gandalf retakes Edoras, kills Mouth + WK.
Gandlaf travels through a day to Pelagir, and charges Umbar.
Then Frodo Died in Mordor to forced movement.
He rolled ridiculous from Dunadan forest on and it all went rapidly downhill. Smeagol turned up twice just after gollum.
I even healed twice at Mians T, and then everything just kinda stopped. Lots of things to complain about as far as dice, but ya get that. The remains of the hunt pool was savage, all eyes and all bad specials. only 2 others, and 2 friendly.
Must Rember ** First Muster Ent **
He did a pretty cool play on the second last turn by using a ring to make the 5 eyes in the hunt lethal, which meant I sucked 1 point instead, and looked for a Free Military Win.