The Ents as an independant Nation

[Krasny]

on the whole i think that WotR is a pretty good game, but i have noticed several discrepancies with the books:

1. the emyn muil areas in the book are treated as having very hostile terrain, that is both difficult to traverse and navigate

in the game they are treated as normal areas

my idea for correcting this is to make the EM areas impassible to armies and requiring characters to use a 'will of the west' action die in addition to exit this area. fellowship marker requires d6 steps on the marker track to exit

2. the mount gundabad area in the book is treated as a practically impossible to assault mountain fastness. it took a great deal of effort and time in the forth age to reduce this fortress

in the game it is treated as a normal area

my idea for correcting this is to make the MG area impassable to all free peoples markers

3. moria in the game is treated as an area both difficult to traverse and navigate, making it difficult for characters/armies to traverse

in the game it is treated as a normal area

my idea for correcting this is similar to the EM area PLUS requiring gandalf or gollum be the fellowship guide AND making the area impassable to free peoplles armies and limiting the size of a shadow army to one

4. the fangorn area in the book is treated as a ancient nation with its own agenda, making it difficult for shadow characters/armies to traverse

in the game it is treated as a normal area

my idea for correcting is is to make the area impassable to shadow markers OR treating fangorn as a FP nation that is really difficult to activate and fangorn units are limited to areas adjacent to fangorn

do these seem like reasonable / balanced rules changes?

[Veldrin]

I like the idea about the Ents being a nation of their own.

Any trial rules?

[glow=green,2,300]Veldrin[/glow]

[Krasny]

the ents would be treated as a normal nation with a number of 'armies' that cant leave fangorn until activated.

activating fangorn would require gandalf the white

[Dietrich]

I like the Ents/Fangorn idea, but not too sure that the others might be too limiting. Regarding the Ent idea, would you not want merry and pippin also to be able to mobilize the Ent faction? How many armies did you envision and what level? Elites or Elite plus (ie,takes 3 hits to kill or hits on 4, 5 and 6, or increased ability in sieges?)

[Krieghund]

I too like this Fangorn idea. It seems to me that the Fangorn nation's armies should not differ in structure from everyone else - it should also consist of regular (Huorn) and elite (Ent) units.

I agree that Gandalf (White only?), Merry and Pippin should be able to activate it, but perhaps it should take more than just one of them showing up to do so. The nation should definitely start at the far end of the political track and follow the same rules for advancing as everyone else. This would force the FP to use muster dice to advance the counter, since no SP in his right mind would attack Fangorn unless there were a victory point incentive. I think there should also be a card that would bring Fangorn straight to war under certain conditions, the presence of one of the potential activators in Fangorn being one of them.

[nigel]

Really this should be moved to House Rules (or expansions).

My take on Ents as another Nation:

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Ents start the game with the following units on Map:

1 Elite (Ents), 4 Regulars (Hourns), 1 Leader (Treebeard)

Reinforcement Pool contains: 1 Leader, 2 Elites, 3 Regulars

Special Rules
Ent Political Marker, top of the track - inactive. Moves down the track one space when Saruman enters play, is NOT activated by the presence of the WK. Only Gandalf the White, a hobbit, the Fellowship or an attack on an army containing Ent units will activate the Ents.

You cannot use 'Wisdom of Elrond' to activate the Ents, but you can use it to advance the political marker.

Merry & Pippin both gain the ability to use any action die to advance the Ent political marker if they are in Fangorn (just like Legolas/Gimli for the elves/dwarves)

Ent event cards cannot be played until the Ents are at War - but the FP player may play Ent cards 'on the table' (like the Balrog) to save for later use of their combat effect (only) if the FP wants to.

Fangorn - Considered a FP City, worth 1 VP and giving the defensive bonus for the first round of combat & Fellowship can 'heal'

Combat: When defending in Fangorn only Ent units inflict losses on opposing armies first - rather than combat being considered simultaneous.

Devilry of Orthanc combat card effect can be played against a FP army containing Ent units regardless of the presence of a stronghold

Loss of Fangorn - if ever Fangorn is taken by a Shadow army ALL remaining Ent reinforcements are moved to the eliminated pile. Any Ent unit on the map remains.

Taking of Orthanc - if ever a FP army with an Ent unit is in Orthanc with Saruman (ie. no Shadow combat units) Saruman is eliminated

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What do you think?

Nigel

[Martinger]

Krieghund said:

I too like this Fangorn idea. It seems to me that the Fangorn nation's armies should not differ in structure from everyone else - it should also consist of regular (Huorn) and elite (Ent) units.

I think the ents should only have elite units. Same for the eagles, which would also be great participate in the game. An Ent or Huorn unit is in my opinion much more useful than a regular.

[Veldrin]

Remember that a Regular orc unit represents some hundred orcs perhaps an Ent Regular would represent 5 Hourns.

It is not the number but their efficeny that the Regular/Elite status symbolises.

[glow=green,2,300]Veldrin[/glow]

[Dietrich]

I tend to think that the Ents and Eagles should also be elites only and few. Perhaps 3 to 5 Ents, and maybe they should have some special power like hit on 4, 5 and 6 or 5 and 6 in sieges. The Ents don't have weapons and armor (and battle order training in units) of the battle trolls but were obviously effective in the destruction of Isengard. The Eagles also should be few. Again, 3 comes to mind, all elites, and perhaps they should have the ability to engage in personal combat with nazgul who could of course return to the game but would require use of die that the SP might need elsewhere.

[Krieghund]

Dietrich, the problem with any nation's forces consisting only of elites is that there is nothing to reduce them to for casualties, therefore they take only 1 hit to destroy, which defeats the purpose of making them elites.

Nigel, I like what you've done, with a couple of reservations. I am not sure about making Fangorn worth a victory point. What does the Shadow gain by taking it? There is no morale value for the FP, since most of them know nothing of the Ents. There is no military value, since the Shadow is best served by leaving the Ents unmolested and therefore excluded from the conflict.

As far as events that move Fangorn on the political track, it may just be best to say that nothing that happens outside the borders of Fangorn will move them, regardless of what the card says. Otherwise, you have to start getting into specific interpretations of the impact of individual cards and events.

Overall, excellent work, Nigel! (IMHO)

[Martinger]

@veldrin: Good point, but I think it’s also important how they are represented on the board. In my opinion you can compare ents with the cave trolls.
Krieghund: They are still worth two points, if two hits are scored. Furthermore they could gain additional abilities, like mentioned before.

[nigel]

Okay, taking on board the comments

I wanted to keep it simple and limit the changes/extra rules to remember etc. I don't have a problem with the unit sizes regular/elite - just consider the regular as 10 Hourns, the Elite as 2 ents or something ...

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Ents (modified):
Ents start the game with the following units on Map in fangorn:

1 Elite (Ents), 4 Regulars (Hourns), 1 Leader (Treebeard)

Reinforcement Pool contains: 1 Leader, 2 Elites, 3 Regulars

Special Rules
Ent Political Marker, top of the track - inactive. Moves down the track one space when Saruman enters play, is NOT activated by the presence of the WK. Only Gandalf the White, a hobbit, the Fellowship or an attack on an army containing Ent units will activate the Ents.

No event cards affect the Ents political marker

Merry & Pippin both gain the ability to use any action die to advance the Ent political marker if they are in Fangorn (just like Legolas/Gimli for the elves/dwarves)

Ent event cards cannot normally be played until the Ents are at War - but the FP player may play Ent cards 'on the table' (like the Balrog) to save for later use of their combat effect (only) if the FP wants to.

Fangorn - Fellowship can heal (like a city/stronghold)
If the SP takes Fangorn the following effects happen immediately:

• ALL remaining Ent reinforcements are moved to the eliminated pile. Any Ent units on the map remain.
• The SP gets 2 bonus (extra) muster action die results that can only be used muster at Orthanc this turn and SP may also draw an event card

This effect is only applied once

Combat: When defending in Fangorn only Ent units inflict losses on opposing armies first - rather than combat being considered simultaneous.

Devilry of Orthanc combat card effect can be played against a FP army containing Ent units regardless of the presence of a stronghold

Taking of Orthanc - if ever a FP army with an Ent unit is in Orthanc with Saruman (ie. no Shadow combat units) Saruman is eliminated

---

Better?

Originally I had Fangorn worth a VP to encourage the SP to attack it, perhaps the freebie bonuses and the elimination of a threat so close to Orthanc will have the same effect, but keep it more thematic?

I'm assuming that by taking Fangorn Saruman gets a huge supply of wood for his war machines ...

Nigel

[Dietrich]

Ents as elites only would work if it took two hits to eliminate them (slide a counter under them for the first hit) as suggested in the set of optional combat rules posted on bgg. I think it makes it simpler and makes the few units more valuable. It also keeps the number of new units to a minimum. I would rather they add a little something new in abilities as well for chrome. There were not that many Ents and Eagles to begin with as I read the books. I see W. Mulder suggests only 3 Ents in his Starting in the Shire Variant. He also suggests 3 units for the Deadman. He suggests they should be more powerful than the average elites. I think he is on the right track. I personally think going with fewer more powerful units is the way to go. However, this takes nothing away from the great work you have done. That's what makes this forum interesting.

[Krieghund]

Nigel, what's your rationale for the special use of the Devilry of Orthanc card against Fangorn? Seems to me this card represents Saruman's "special" attack against the Helm's Deep fortifications in the book, and I am not sure how this would apply to Ents.

How about this idea - one muster die brings all remaining Fangorn reinforcements into the game at once. This would represent the "awakening" of the Ents. Of course, Fangorn must be "at war" for this to happen, as per normal mustering rules. This would give the Ents a little more punch without beefing up their combat ability artificially.

[Martinger]

Krieghund said:

How about this idea - one muster die brings all remaining Fangorn reinforcements into the game at once. This would represent the "awakening" of the Ents. Of course, Fangorn must be "at war" for this to happen, as per normal mustering rules. This would give the Ents a little more punch without beefing up their combat ability artificially.

"The awakening of the Ents" could also mean to be at war. So what about a card called "The awakening of the Ents" which moves the Ents at war, even if they haven't been activated yet like for the dwarves and the Northmen?
I think without the card the Ents, which would be great for the atmosphere of the game, would be out of the game most of the time. Remember that most FPs don't push for a military victory, so bringing the Ents to war (three dice!) and mustering with additional dice isn't very interesting for them.