|
Post by mrweasely on Apr 17, 2007 18:52:47 GMT 1
I'd like to see more companions dancing around the map, leading armies and playing combat cards. I'm trying to think of a way to do this without breaking the ring game.
Here's my first-blush idea.
Narrow Escapes Before the game, shuffle several 'fate' chits, 'X', '1','2', and '2'. (use twilight tiles, or craft your own). When a member of the fellowship (other than Gandalf or Smeagol) is taken as a casualty, place them aside as a 'fallen companion'.
During the fellowship phase, the free may draw a chit. If the number on the chit is equal or greater than any dead companion's level, place that companion into play, immediately 'seperating' them a number of regions equal to the difference of the chit and their level. Unlike a regular seperation, do not add the value of the FSP track, or the character's level. If multiple companions have fallen the free player may choose which compaion to bring back.
The X tile: The 'X' tile's numeric value is zero - no companion comes back this turn. Additionally, when drawn, the shadow player chooses a fallen companion and eliminates him from the game permanently.
When chits are exhausted, the free can't draw a tile, so no companions are brought back.
Narrow Escapes may be used either before or after declaring the fellowship's location, but they can't be used after the fellowship is on the Mordor track.
Special Hunt Tile Cards
Elven Cloaks: When played, that card also adds a '3' tile to the fate chits and reshuffle. Elven Rope: When played, that card also adds a '2*' tile to the fate chits and reshuffle. When drawn, the '2*' tile first lets the Free player immediately move any and all companions 2 regions each, then functions like a regular '2' tile. Give it to Ussss!: When played, also add an extra 'X' tile to the fate chits and reshuffle.
Example The fellowship is in Hollin. Merry and Legolas have already fallen. The free player draws a '2'. He can either seperate Merry and move him one region, or seperate Legolas and move him zero regions. He chooses Legolas and places him the only place he can: in Hollin.
|
|
|
Post by mrweasely on Apr 17, 2007 19:00:47 GMT 1
I'm thinking of wedding this to watered-down NATs.
|
|
|
Post by Goodgulf the Grey on Apr 18, 2007 3:27:18 GMT 1
What about a simplified version of Narrow Escapes?
If a companion is removed but didn't absorb the full corruption level then the Free People's player may choose to separate the companion a number of spaces from the FSP marker equal to the corruption difference.
For example: Boromir dies on a 1r tile and is separated 1 region away from the FSP marker.
This would allow Aragorn and Gandalf the Grey to survive more than the level 2 companions and the other Hobbits would not have narrow escapes. This may be the opposite of what you were looking for since in your version Aragorn would never have a "narrow escape".
An alternative might be to allow the Hobbits to automatically get separated and not allow Gandalf or Aragorn to absorb corruption and escape. Then it would only allow Boromir, Legolas, and Gimli to have narrow escapes if they absorb exactly 1 corruption.
This variant would allow the Free People's player to get more companions involved when the "Ring game" is going against him and likewise when companions are efficient at absorbing corruption then they will not be able to help the in the "Military game".
|
|
|
Post by mrweasely on Apr 18, 2007 5:31:00 GMT 1
Or even let the character seperate if its level is not exactly equal to the corruption. So if Pip eats the '3', he seperates and moves 2 regions.
I think its good that the Free tries like h*** to keep Strider alive, and losing him should be a demoralizing, serious blow.
Heck, for that matter, this system could be reworked to govern the reincarnation of Gandalf as The White. No more stupid waiting for the WoW. Now it could be just stupid waiting for a tile...what an improvement that would be (sarcasm)...hm...
|
|
|
Post by Goodgulf the Grey on Apr 18, 2007 13:14:50 GMT 1
The problem with allowing separation on excess corruption is that it makes losing a companion to a 3 tile a double benefit (max absorption + separation). In the standard game, if Pippin falls on a 3 tile then he can still come back at a cost of an action die with his ability (not very efficient but I like to allow both hobbits to come back together for a single action die). Also, with the above rule, if Merry and Pippin are the last companions to go then they can both separate on a 2 tile for free.
You can make the rule: If a level 2 or Hobbit is taken as a casualty and absorbs only 1 pt of corruption for the Fellowship then the FP may also separate that companion a distance equal to their level - 1.
This makes taking a casualty on a 1 tile a choice but a difficult one. Also, Axe&Bow and Horn would be able to reduce a 2 tile to 1 pt of damage and allow a companion to separate.
What would be more interesting when testing this is to see if the Fellowship decides to take random casualties when the FSP has made progress on the track and get companions to far-flung locations to activate/lead more armies.
|
|
|
Post by mrweasely on Apr 18, 2007 17:29:00 GMT 1
A couple of thoughts:
1) Hobbits need to move farther initially, because once they're alone in the wild, they're basically stationary for the rest of the game. I was thinking hobbit seperations should be a constant 4 regions, Level 2s: 1 region, and level 3s (if allowed at all): 0 regions.
A 'formula' for that is floor (4/L2), but who wants to remember that?
2) Thematically, some hunt tiles are Deadly. The Fellowship should fear the Deadly tiles. If they end up being ambivalent about the amount of damage, then the game loses some of its tension. Trying to match companions to corruption is pretty fun. Trying to keep Strider alive should be tense. Bad things CAN happen to good people.
|
|
|
Post by Goodgulf the Grey on Apr 18, 2007 20:41:00 GMT 1
1) I'm not sure I like a rule that lets the Hobbits separate with Gwahir capability everytime -- it's a little too strong. This allows the Free People to activate nations with the halflings after they reduce corruption.
They are most useful if the Fellowship goes by the DEW line where they can activate nations if needed, otherwise dropping them in Lorien or near Minas Tirith can be okay.
I'm also trying to keep the expanison in mind (and my version of the Hunty WK can keep the FP nations passive for some time) so allowing the Hobbits this flexibility is a little too much IMHO.
I am fine with giving them the ability to separate as if a Character Action die were used so that if the FSP is on step 2 when Merry dies on a 1 tile then he can separate up to 3 regions away from the current FSP location.
2) Totally agree that Strider should be a bad random casualty and shouldn't "come back" as if separated.
I think that these rules actually bring more tension into hunt damage. If I have the FSP 3 spaces from Rivendell (not revealed) and draw a 1 tile do I take it as corruption or take a random (hoping not Gandalf and esp not Strider) so I can separate a companion to activate some nations...
|
|
SevenSpirits
Nazgûl
PlayTester
Sauron meant no harm. He only wanted to draw the extra cards...
Posts: 283
|
Post by SevenSpirits on Apr 18, 2007 21:05:03 GMT 1
This is a cool idea, and I really liked it at first, but I think there's a fundamental problem with it: the free should never be hoping to draw a hunt tile.
This is also a problem with Gandalf the Grey and his desired death in the base game, and with turn stalling which makes you WANT to draw a reveal tile.
|
|
|
Post by mrweasely on Apr 19, 2007 4:28:37 GMT 1
I played a game with the rules as they were at the top of this thread.
Corruption was as tight as ever, and the WK was card-cycling me pretty well there. By the end I wanted a '3' to kill GtG, but corruption was tight, and I couldn't afford to let him die on a '1'. In the end, he lived.
Sauron won militarily.
There was some chicanery where I knew I'd have a 50% chance for Strider to narrowly escape. That kind of fate-tile manipulation is unthematic. Ppptht. There should be a kitty of fate tiles, so that it doesn't happen. (assuming, for the moment, fate tiles are the way to go).
Merry took one step out of Rivendell, got lost, and eventually found his way back there. Late in the game he got killed when Rivendell fell.
Boromir narrowly escaped to Lorien, and had a few stories to tell, but nothing tremendous.
Pippin seperated using There and Back Again to activate the north. I should have taken Gimli, I misread the card. The hobbit had his day, when he slew the Witch King even as Woodland Realm fell to Strife. ;D
Legolas narrowly got killed by an 'X' tile.
Foul Thing from the Deep chomped Strider, but didn't like the itchy Elven Cloak, and spat him back up. Strider took Gwaihir to Dol Amroth, where a real arms race unfolded: Shadow's Moving in another 10-stack versus [4/1/1] and Cirdan's Ships and Spirit of Mordor and Sudden Strike,
Gimli died and got killed by Gollum's 'X' tile.
Gandalf the Grey didn't die. When the free lost at step-1 of Mordor, he was still alive, with the FSP at 8 corruption.
I was also testing if the Free could survive without GtW or Aragorn with watered-down NATs - the answer is: no.
Seperation via sword was rare before. Now when companions come back for free, its hella rare. I did it once to get more activations. For a typical siege, I can't imagine seperation being worth it, especially with We Prove the Swifter and Gwaihir now working on pre-seperated dudes.
Though in those games where Sauron can't hunt worth beans, I suppose it would make sense.
|
|
|
Post by Goodgulf the Grey on Apr 19, 2007 15:25:57 GMT 1
I am interested in using NATs in both the Basic Game and the Expansion since they give more incentive to a Hunt WK strategy. Also, NATs helps get Galadriel by getting the Elves to War quickly.
I think that NATs alone should not compensate for lack or GtW or Aragorn and that is a good thing since the FP strategy should not be to ALWAYS keep them in the fellowship.
I played one game with the "Narrow Escape" suggestions I made and it only resulted in Merry getting sent to Lorien when he separated after an Eye tile revealed the FSP past Moria (Boromir died on the Moria tile). Pippin left due to Breaking of the Fellowship. Gandalf and Legolas fell to tiles on the way and Strider led the FSP into Mordor where he and Gimli fell before the Fellowship dunked the ring.
It didn't make a huge difference and I can see where hoping for a "1" tile would be beneficial but the same is true in the expansion regarding the Smeagol tiles...
I will keep testing this variant but keep in mind that I use Elrond and Grima also so it could be a little different. Grima, in particular, encourages Gandalf the White while Elrond is a slight counter to early Saruman and he gives more corruption removal options.
|
|
|
Post by mrweasely on Apr 19, 2007 18:58:35 GMT 1
I agree, it doesn't make as huge a difference as I expected. After expermienting with chits, I came to the conclusion that they weren't random enough. From a Sauron perspective, you're often uncertain of whether you've managed to kill the Heir of Isuldur. From a Free perspective, you really want to keep him alive, because if you don't you will probably never see him again. So I'm going to try a die-based system... 0) Use the base game 1) Use "watered down NATs" 2) Use "Narrow Escapes" as follows: Before the game, go get the Train die from Fury of Dracula. This will be called the Escape Die. Its a 6-sided die with faces labeled: X,0,1,2,2, and "2/3". When a companion is removed from play from the fellowship, place them in the "fallen companions" box. During the fellowship phase the Free player may roll the Escape die.... The 0, 1, and 2 results: If the number equals or exceeds any fallen companion's level, the Free player may choose that comapnion and immediately "seperate" him, placing them at the FSP's last known position then moving them the listed number of regions: - Strider, Gandalf the Grey: 0 regions
- Boromir, Legolas, Gimli: 1 region
- Merry, Pippin: d6-1 regions
These seperations obey some traditional seperation rules: They can't move through shadow strongholds. On the other hand, they don't add the FSP progress counter's value to the distance. I'm not sure what should happen if the FSP's last known position is 'under siege'. The 2/3 result The 2/3 result can bring back Strider or Gandalf the Grey by discarding one random Strategy card and one random Character card. Otherwise, treat it as a '2'. The X result The X result allows Sauron to pick a companion in the fallen box and permanently remove them from the game. Gandalf X'ing Gandalf the Grey doesn't prevent Gandalf the White from appearing. If Gandalf the Grey is 'fallen', then the Free player may remove him to bring in Gandalf the White in the traditional manner. Timing The Free player may roll the die either before or after declaring the fellowship, but can't roll the die first, decide to declare, and then perform a seperation. Mordor None of this works while the Fellowship is on the Mordor track.
|
|
|
Post by mrweasely on Apr 23, 2007 6:05:31 GMT 1
As people have pointed out from the get go, this rule does subtly subsidise sprinting. Certainly over "regular" NATs, it does so heavily. In fact, it feels suspiciously like out-of-the-box WotR. - Move suicidally quickly to kill Gandalf.
- Strider guides from Moria to Mordor, taking random casualities to shore up defenses along the way.
- Either take Strider with you into Moria (vs Card Cycler), or spin him off as King right before Mordor (DEW North).
Paradoxically, this rule has not increased the number of companions running around the map. Because NATs are so weak, there's not as much reason to engineer early mass activations with companions. Corruption is tight, so better to keep the companions as bellboys for Frodo. They die. About 33% come back. The rest aren't viable for some reason and are out of the game. Meh.
|
|
|
Post by Goodgulf the Grey on Apr 23, 2007 16:40:20 GMT 1
Another way of going at this problem might be to improve the character seperation cards and allow them to heal the FSP better... this might promote more character separations without penalizing the FSP.
Gwaihir the Windlord - Separate one or more companions from the FSP as if their level were 4. These companions may end this move in a Stronghold under Siege. Heal 1 corruption.
I will Go Alone - Separate one companion or group of companions and allow them to move one extra region. Heal a number of corruption points equal to the highest level of a separated companion.
There and Back Again - Separate one or more companions from the FSP and move 1 extra region. If Gimli or Legolas are in Dale, Erebor or the Woodland Realm, activate Dwaves, North and Elves and move all 1 step on Political Track. Heal 1 corruption.
We Prove the Swifter - Separate one or more companions from the FSP and move 2 extra regions. Companions using this card are allowed to end in a Stronghold under Siege. Heal 1 corruption.
|
|
Veldrin
Lord of the Nazgûl
Posts: 1,305
|
Post by Veldrin on Apr 24, 2007 6:59:49 GMT 1
Should this fix work only for the main gam eor also with the expansion added?
With the expansion added the Fellowshp can alreadsoak up enough Corruption.
[glow=green,2,300]Veldrin[/glow]
|
|
|
Post by mrweasely on Apr 24, 2007 7:29:08 GMT 1
Goodgulf, I like healing ~+1 corruption for seperators. Makes me think about what other abilities could be bolted on:
+"Then immediately play or draw an event card" could lead to some interesting chain reactions. For example:
Seperate + Recruit: Gwahir drops Boromir off in besieged Minas Tirith, where he immediately plays Guards of the Citadel. Shadow wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition!
"companion Blitzkreig" - seperate into some scraggly little army, then Through a Day and a Night them. Maybe Carrock -> Mount Gundabad. Or better yet: launch ents who flatten the Uruks of Orthanc, then Gwaihir a companion to Eastmnet, then Through a Day and a Night the Eastmnet army into Orthanc for the FPMV!
Seperate + Eagles.
Seperate + Paths of the Dead.
|
|