Strengthen Lorien Variant

[nigel]

One of the problems the FP have is the Elves are so brittle, in most games I've seen Lorien burn (usually quite early), and it a significant number the elves have then been targetted further with Rivendell and/or Woodland Realm going down too.

Reason is the lack of reinforcements for them - and Cirdan's Ships just makes the situation worse.

One variant you can try if you want to strengthen the elves just a little bit is:

Remove the leader from the Grey Havens and add it to Lorien, so Lorien starts the game with 2 leaders. The Grey Haven elven leader is largely irrelevant in most games but having the 2nd re-roll in Lorien helps to slow the assault there - and gives you a chance to use the combat cards that are based on leadership.

This is only a minor change, and there are no new rules etc to remember. It also means that Saruman might be tempted to incite a 'Rage of the Dunlendings' and go burn the Shire and Grey Havens - something I rarely see happening in the game.

Nigel

[cheup]

I also think, that the Elves especially in Lorien should be strengthened.
Another possibility - which, I think, was also discussed elsewhere on this board - would be that this "Elven Stronghold Protection"-card (forgot its name) is in play at the beginning of the game.

[nigel]

cheup said:

I also think, that the Elves especially in Lorien should be strengthened.
Another possibility - which, I think, was also discussed elsewhere on this board - would be that this "Elven Stronghold Protection"-card (forgot its name) is in play at the beginning of the game.

Problem with this is the Shadow player can get rid of it relatively easily (1 die and 2 cards), and then it's gone for good (no sudden surprise playing of it to stop a siege later etc). There is a suggestion on www.warofthering.webb.se where you treat the leader in Lorien as a '2' leader while it stays there. This has a similar effect - but means you have another rule to remember.

Personally I like the idea of weakening slightly the Grey Havens and bolstering Lorien as I rarely see the West getting much action other than Rivendell in most games as it's so far away (too many dice) it makes more sense as the Shadow to go for Dale/Erebor/Woodland Realm rather than Grey Havens/Shire.

Nigel

[Lynx]

The Elves are too weak, it seems: maybe the "A power too great" card should be beefed-up? The elven rings could be used to negate the discarding of the card. If you get the card you might stop the Shadow several turns because of the dice and the cards he has to sacrifice. To balance things, one elven ring should be lost (transferred to the Shadow) for each of Rivendell, Lorien and Gandalf the White lost, signifying the Bearers of the Three Rings.

Another simple fix would be to move the Elves closer to war at start, say one or two levels. An early assault on Lorien could then be hindered simply by mustering quickly. The long-term problem of the small force pool remains, of course.

Another idea: maybe an Elven ring could be placed immediately on the stronghold with the respective Ring-bearer in it, stopping any invasion? This way, it could be used early without getting the "A power..." card. Maybe it should be harder to discard, the presence of the Witch King perhaps?

[nigel]

Some good suggestions

Problem with the Elves isn't their position on the political track - even a box down they aren't going to muster much before Lorien in under siege (from Dol Guldur) and then they can't add troops there anyway.

I think the Elf problem is 2 fold.

1. A significant portion of their troops are already deployed, but spread out over 4 areas all far apart, this means it's very hard to bring them together or to protect all the holdings (especially Lorien) The leaders are a particular problem, as having just a single leader in a siege isn't much help - you need at least 2 (and the more the better) to gain the benefit of the combat cards.

2. Elves are targetted by Return to Valinor & a Power to Great - which means unless Power to Great hits the table early on there's a real incentive to 'get on with it' for the Shadow against the Elves. Furthermore the Elves are the only active FP nation, so hitting them doesn't 'activate' them etc.

Perhaps looking at the other side of the table for an adjustment? Reduce the regular orcs in Dol Guldur to 4 (rather than 5) and add an extra orc in Gorgoroth or Nurn. That makes moving the army from Dol Guldur immediately less appealing, as it really needs at least 5 regulars with the elite - but if the Shadow has to wait to bring Sauron to war and then another muster for the regular, either Isengard/Saruman is missed (so 1 less die for the Shadow next turn) or the army is delayed in leaving Dol Guldur.

This delay might be enough to get the elves to war and muster in an extra elite or something.

But, this game is pretty balanced - and a major adjustment is likely to tip things too far, so I'd prefer to see/try a little 'tweak' before making a big change. Also rule changes/additions add to what players have to remember, making the game more complex for beginners. The switching round of leaders (and or troop types) between on-board/off-board or the 4 strongholds is the easiest to do, as it doesn't introduce any new rules or 'exceptions'.

The other thing to consider is the Elves need very careful play, and perhaps I'm just not skilled enough in this element of the game (yet)? Elves have a small reinforcement pool, 4 strongholds to cover and all the leaders in play (so they aren't likely to be too 'offensive'). Cirdan's Ships could strip away 2 units, and there are a number of 'muster' cards to play Elven units too. Possibly the FP has to decide which 1-2 strongholds he really wants to contest for the Elves (probably Rivendell/Lorien) and *only* muster into those (and not use Cirdan's Ships).

Nigel

[andypalmer]

The Elves are also hurt by the fact that Lorien and Woodland Realm are equidistant from Dol Guldur - and they can't defend them both.

[Lynx]

Well, I agree that rule changes should be kept to a minimum. Both for simplicity and to not change the balance which in this game is the best I've seen in a game for a long time thanks to the great play-testing...

What about this? Elrond and Galadriel are stationary characters in Rivendell and Lorien (not leaders, these would be Glorfindel and Celeborn). Place two of the Elven rings in Rivendell and Lorien to show this. They add 1 leadership to battles in the stronghold. The rings can be used to pick up the "A power too great" card from BOTH undrawn and played cards and play it immediately. Discarding the card has an extra condition: the Shadow player must have more units and more leadership in an army next to a stronghold mentioned on the card, elites counting for two. Until the card is discarded, the elven ring is placed on the border to show it's use to protect the Elven strongholds and not transferred to the Shadow, giving an extra Leadership (i.e. at least three Nazgul to discard).

The Elves are pushed to war each time the card is played, it makes multiple small assaults on the strongholds impossible because of the new condition for discarding- and no change in set-up.

[rezha]

I took one of my old female miniatures, painted it, and now she is Galadriel. I put that one insted of the standard elf leader in Lorien, so we remenber she's a 2 point leader. Furthermore, i want to try to say she count as a companion (so you can play certain good cards in combat that require a companion) and that she cant leave lorien (and she dies if lorien is captured).
How is that?

[nigel]

andypalmer said:

The Elves are also hurt by the fact that Lorien and Woodland Realm are equidistant from Dol Guldur - and they can't defend them both.

Right, although I think Woodland Realm can be 'defended' more easily than Lorien. You can move a North unit to Old Forest Road to cover the approach, which means a Dol Guldur attack to WR would activate and advance the North - and the North can help out the WR defence (as can the Dwarves if you get them moving).

In quite a few games I've seen the Fellowship forced to take the High Pass route - and if they go that way going through Mirkwood (Old Forest Road) is just as viable as down the Anduin, which means you can strip out Legolas or Gimli (or bring back eliminated hobbits) to strengthen the defenses there. Of course an early attack on WR will prevent this.

I think the presence of the North around WR make Lorien a better target - plus Lorien is close to Moria, as the Shadow I'm always worried about an elven attack from Lorien into a weak Moria ...

Nigel

[Veldrin]

Yes, as the FP you should always try to move the North Regular from Carrock to the Old Forrest Road to protect the Woodland Realm and force the Shadow to activate and move the North one step on the political track if such an approach is chosen.

[glow=green,2,300]Veldrin[/glow]

[committedhero]

rezha said:

[Galadriel] cant leave lorien (and she dies if lorien is captured).
How is that?

It works for Saruman, should work for her.

[AussieLurker]

Veldrin, I realise you are under an NDA, but does the appearance of a 'Galadriel' figurine in the upcoming expansion suggest that the Game's designers have looked at this thread and gotten some good ideas?

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

[Veldrin]

Perhaps, let us just say that Lorien becomes a thougher nut to crack if Gladriel is in play.

[glow=green,2,300]Veldrin[/glow]

[gloin]

Hy,

There's also the variant where all elven leaders are considered "Captains of the West" thus providing +1 combat value. Has anybody tried that?

Gloin

[LIIT]

I like the idea of a power to great being in play from the start, and that an elven ring can stop the SP from removing it. We will try that in a game, and return with some feedback.

But I'm a bit surprised to hear that Lorien always gets attacked, we normally have a better succes with the WR (5points Gondor + Erebor+Dale) - that's 10 VP that's not too hard to take, if you use the right combat cards (of-course,if the North/Dwarfes move to war early due to a event card, the strategy changes).
If you get your Dol Gundur troops into Old Forrest Road fast, then you can leave them there for a few rounds while you concentrate on other regions. Just remember to move them into WR if North/Elves get close to going to war.