Magic Geek versus MrWeasely!!

[mrweasely]

www.osaurus.us/~dm/wotr/logs/mgversus.log

TURN 1

(note: in decoding dice, H stands for "Army Muster")

MG as the free rolls W W C H and draws Wizzo-Staff and Rangers of the North
Weasely as the Dark Lord rolls M H H H C E and draws Grond and Threats & Promises

The Dark Lord gets two wolfs in N. Dunland and Saruman.

The Free People send Strider, Boromir, Merry, and Legolas south, in MG's typical style. With an Elven Ring, Aragorn is crowned king of Gondor.

TURN 2

Free roll C P M H H, draw Grimbeorn and I Will Go It Alone
Sauron rolls M H A C C P E, draw Nazgul Aboard and Storm Cow

Free move the Fellowship once, musters elves twice politically (Prince of Mirkwood!), get Galadriel (because Sauron declares war), and muster an elite into Lorien. Magic geek decides to wait to bring in the ents, because Lorien's looking shaky, and this turkey doesn't seem to care about Voice of Saruman anyway.

Sauron uses a dark ring to make two army die results, moving N. Dunland and Dol Guldur all into Dimril Dale, then putting Lorien under siege. Oh yeah, he gets Mordor to war and brings out His Witchieness.

On the last die of the turn, Grond begins the siege of Lorien!
Ladies and gentlemen, The contendas:
From North Dunland, weighing in at 13 hits, with 10 offensive dice and good cards:
THE Witch King, a Nazgul, two Wargs, a troll, and 7 orcs!!!
From Lorien, weighing in at 7 hits, with 9 offensive dice and crap cards:
THE Lady Galadriel, Legolas, Celeborn, 3 elites, and 1 regular!!!

Round one:
Shadow plays Delivery of Orthanc for 4 lucky hits. Free plays nothing and gets 2 hits. Free has 3 regulars left. Shadow has 11 hits left. Ding "and there's the bell!"

Round two:
Shadow plays Great Host and gets 1 natural hit too.
Free plays nothing and gets 2 hits. Free has one regular left. Shadow has 9 hits left.

Round three:
Shadow plays Relentless Assualt but wait! What's this? Free counters with Daring Defiance!
Elves poke for 1 hit.
Shadow rolls more than the 1 hit it needs.
Down goes Lorien!
1 ... 2 ... 3 ... 4 ... 5 ... 6 ... 7 ... 8 ... 9 ... 10
Witch King is the winner! At the end of the second turn, with 3-elite, 8 hit army in Lorien, and two victory points already under the belt, and a robust 9 dice in the kitty. In exchange, the Free have moved the fellowship just once, and gotten the elves to war. Frodo's taken two corruption, and Legolas is dead with precious little to show for it. On the other hand, the Free have 5 dice AND gandalf the white, and Minas Tirith is lookin' strong. Will Wizard's Staff come out, or will Gandalf die so that he can become the 6-million dollar Gandalf?

In any case, I think the SA are winning this game, and by a lot.

By the way, this wasn't really a game against Magic Geek, it was just a solo game, with reasonable amounts of information hiding between sides, and following moves I'd think he'd make ... i.e. Free didn't KNOW for sure the Shadow was packing Grond.

Apologies, el Gecko, just thought I'd stir up controversy using your name. Now you get to say what you'd really do with all those turn 2 musters.

[mrweasely]

PS: this thread should be in "Twilight", because them's the rules "we" used.

[magicgeek]

Fact is that the shadow got lucky in this example.
Grond, plus lucky in the first round against no defensive cards.
Lorien could have easily stalled out and Free Win because of it.

All 3 remaining Elven strongholds will be very hard to take.
The game is still anybodies.

Shadow now have 9 dice, and Free have 5.
And why do the shadow only roll 6 dice on the first turn?
Dunno, maybe you placed an eye??


MG as the free rolls W W C H and draws Wizzo-Staff and Rangers of the North
Weasely as the Dark Lord rolls M H H H C E and draws Grond and Threats & Promises

This is a very hard choice.
4 shadow musters = 5 Wolves
5 shadow musters = Voice frenzy

How am I to know my opponent does not realise the Voice is his correct play?
It is the horror of never rolling another Will that causes problems.
If my correct play is to get the King with a ring, his correct play is to Voice.

Against that I think I would cave in.Tough call though.
(And now that I know Mr weasley does not Voice, you bet I would get the King against him)

The Free People send Strider, Merry, and Legolas to Moria
Move characters
Get Ents
Move FSP once / move strider to M-T / play wizards staff



Free roll C P M H H, draw Grimbeorn and I Will Go It Alone
Sauron rolls M H A C C P E, draw Nazgul Aboard and Storm Cow

bit hard to work on from here, different card drawn, one less die.
And why are the shadow only rlling 7 dice?

The order of the shadow dice being used does matter too.
Sauron armies are moving toward Lorien.
Why the elves are being moved down I dont know, makes no sense to me.
Legolas should use bad palantirs, or character dice sometimes.
A siege engine in Lorien seems reasonable.
(sure, you have Grond)

[mrweasely]

Yes, the Weasely Shadow is placing an eye. The idea is you make suggestions on how the Free play, since I've already agreed that my obsessive Lorien Rushing might not be the best strategy. I just do it anyway, because its tense !!



Yes, free cards were incredibly weak. They really needed Charge and Sudden Strike.

Yes, shadow cards were strong, particularly Grond, Hammer of my Underpants. The problem is, Galadriel is always making excuses for the fact that the shadow has drawn some of these strong cards:

10 Durin's Bane
9 Hill Trolls
8 Shadow Lengthens (2x2)
7 A New Power Is Rising
6 The Ringwraiths are Abroad
5 Deep Trenches and Great Engines
4 Shadows Gather (3x1)
3 Grond, Hammer of the Underworld
2 Shadows on the Misty Mountains
1 The Fighting Uruk-Hai

A turn 2 Lorien rush is very rare, and very rarely a good idea, IMO. In this case it was a good idea, owing to a lucky combination of factors.

By the time the dice started rolling, the Shadow got 80th percentile luck, but only needed 50th percentile luck. Maybe take a look at www.osaurus.us/~dm/wotr/siege to play with this. Because the only shadow combat cards the simulator understands are Strife and Desperate Battle, I figure Delivery+Host+Relentless is worth somewhat more than a Desperate Battle.

Its just not as close as you'd think it would be. Shadow brought 13 hits, and rolls 10 dice pips before cards. The free has merely 7 hits, rolls 18 dice pips. The shadow can loose 8 hits and still be at max dice. The Defense can only take 2 hits without dropping hits. The Shadow can drag the fight out up to 6 rounds, if it feels like it. See how the early Wargs control the flow of battle better than regulars?

The Free is mustering the Elves politically because they see the attack coming, but expect the Hot War on turn 3, like usual. They want to be able to muster while under siege before the attack comes. And, donno, I guess they just have "a bad feeling" about Trebuchets. They got lucky they didn't buy any. If they didn't spend 3 dice this turn to get the one extra elite, they'd have to get super-lucky to hold.

After this battle, the Elves have only 3 figures left in the muster bag. So they can "go big" at one stronghold, probably Rivendell. For the other two, they'll need help from their allies.

The Shadow strategy from here on out should be to go for all 3 of the remaining Elven strongholds. Musters go to Dunland for a Gray Havens raiding party. The vets at Lorien go for Rivendell. And Barad Dur goes for Wooden Realm or Erebor.

[mrweasely]

We played again. You won! Lorien & Legolas used the entire Elven bag in their defense. With the hosts of Mordor gathered around the Golden Wood, a Wind from the West blew away Grond, the giant battering ram.

If only they'd brought some paper-weights to hold it down! ;D

[magicgeek]

"The Free is mustering the Elves politically because they see the attack coming, but expect the Hot War on turn 3, like usual. "

To me this is the stinky bit.

If I know you are about to attack Lorien, I know you have something special.
Why not just let you attack it and send the Elves to war?

I have thought quite a lot about this.
If you build up an assault on Lorien, go ahead and take it.
Too slow and Lorien might become impregnable, otherwise, OK, 2 points to shadow at the end of turn 2 and no other development occuring on the board.

Fine.

Galadriel is still worth mustering.
Saving 3 dice by not mustering the elves sounds strong to me.

My favourite response to this particular plan is to move 2 Elites from Lorien into Dimril Dale.
And Rivendell to TrollShaws, or Edoras -> Westernmet.

So, where was the WK mustered?
Makes a whole lot of your moves not work
Might be a tad hopefull, but a scouts card is really intimidating from dimril dale, and then walking into Dol Guldur.


OK, I think the play is,
First turn King.

Second turn
M = Ents
P = Wizzo Staff
C = move FSP
H = Seige engine in Lorien
H = Galadriel

Leaving
Rangers of the North, Grimbeorn, I Will Go It Alone (and character card x)

The Wargs in this example are just guys, with a leadership.


The real diffrence between a Lorien Rush or something else is that it is entirely possible that the Shadow just rolled bad and lost.
Taking Lorien requires real resources that could have been used somewhere else
1 VP per turn means turn 10 win.
But FSP should win before that.


And apparantly I won the rematch at Lorien, which would mean the WK and the shadow in general have lost.

Huzzah!

[mrweasely]

Yep, congratulations! Normally straw men don't do too well, but in this case you did. ;D

Not spending 4 dice defending Lorien seems sound enough.

With elves in Dimril, route the 8hp from Dol Guldur through Parth Celebrant. The elves must retreat again, right?

Not sure I buy the "Lorien's unimportant, and the Shadow is only averaging 1vp/turn" argument. But this case WAS an outlier. If the shadow gets this lucky, yeah, I can see a case for folding.

I tried a third game, but I just couldn't split 8 points of corruption on a first turn C M M M roll. So Sauron and the Free had a negotiated peace.

[renter]

I'm not sure about Galardiel rules, but if she mimics Saruman, why not just abandon Lorien and let Galadriel sit there, Saruman-style? You save some elven troops at the cost of a scouts (or ½ army die). Unless, of course, there's some rule about Galadriel being removed from game if/when Lorien falls to the Shadow.

Of course, you could just delay recruiting her in the first place

[mrweasely]

Saruman has a Numenorean tower of impenetrable stone. Galadriel only has a tree house. So she dies if there are no elven units there to keep her guard.

[renter]

Hmm... well, if I'm reading the condensed rules right, she would behave just like a single minion/companion/leader/nazgul when not with an army. IE even if Lorien is captured but there were no elven units there, Galadriel will remain.

So you keep your extra dice, Galadriel's special actions, save some elven troops and if you ever try to recapture Lorien, you can muster. Hmm... never mind, you should be able to muster anyway since you're not under siege, you're the one who's holding the siege.

[magicgeek]

The rules in the box are very dodgey on the matter.

"and is removed from play if Lorien becomes controlled by the shadow player"

That can be used to describe a toggle, that only occurs once.
Or, as a constant game effect.

EG 1 .
Shadow now controls Lorien, so Galadriel can come and hide in a bush.

or

EG2 .
Shadow still controls Lorien, so Galadriel can be summoned and immediately leaves play.


Either way.
No.
Galadriel does not work like how you want it to.
Galadriel cannot be played, well she will not stay there.
If she can spend a nanosecond on the board is trivial and stupid.


Much more complex though is the Balrog.
No statements like that exist for him.
Obviously the Troll would not appear if the Elves conquered Moria, but I think the Balrog could be summoned.

If An Ent wipes Moria and the Balrog is already there, we play the Blarog dies
But, If an Ent occupies Moria, does the Balrog Die?

And Yes, this question was asked in my last game.


Also, checks the Actual Rules, with expansion.
lets see. . . ,, . According to me, I say. . .
<<no mention either way>>

Hmm.
I suppose that is OK since the rules in the box actually suck rather badly.

That is what <I Think>.

I will make this explicit on Galadriel in the actual Rules.
If someone could give me an official answer about the Balrog, I would appreciate it.


And regarding the main thread, if you charge Lorien this comprehensively. I would let it fall and protect the other 3 Elven strongholds.
I would consider this a completely acceptable position for the Free to be in on turn 3.