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Post by jackstere on Apr 22, 2005 18:17:43 GMT 1
The companions travelled to Fangorn, and threatened Saruman with Ev(ent) cards, and out of fear of those I left two of my five wargs in Orthanc, advancing with three (the Fords of Isen garrison obviously scouted away from my five wargs). I besieged Helm´s Deep, and started mustering more troops to counter the Rohan elites spawning in Edoras. The Shadow Lenghtens moved four regulars into position to defend Orthanc while the Orthanc garrison moved to Helm´s Deep. The Rohan army (3 elites and one regular) had moved forwards from Edoras, and I attacked them with my super-stack, causing no casualties. He "retreated" to Fords of Isen, ready to attack Orthanc, which he did, and obviously my garrison went in the stronghold. I left one regular to annoy the Helm´s Deep garrison and moved with the rest of the army to the Fords, while moving 4 more Dunlanders to the Gap of Rohan to block the escape of the Rohan army, which now included Boromir, Gandalf and Pippin. My army attacked as he was hesitant to attack Orthanc in the hopes of killing Saruman. Well, he caused five casualties in the first round to my three, and in the second round he caused three to my one, so that was that attack. The Dunlanders sacrificed themselves, all four of them dying, only killing one in addition to a heroically sacrificing Pippin. Then, Gandalf and Boromir fled to Edoras. Yeah it sure does seem you have crap for combat rolls. Were Nazgul involved in that attack on his three elites and one regular plus companions? Seems he faced annihilation of this stack and the loss of GTW. But the heroic sacrifice cards seem to give such hidden strength to the FP armies that its hard to know how much you need to take down even a small force. Galling it was Pippin besides
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SevenSpirits
Nazgûl
PlayTester
Sauron meant no harm. He only wanted to draw the extra cards...
Posts: 283
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Post by SevenSpirits on Apr 22, 2005 19:27:14 GMT 1
Three more points, Glabro.
1) When you take over Fords of Isen or Osgiliath, you should almost always leave a unit there when you leave, so the FP can't retreat there as mentioned.
2) One unit each in the Mordor strongholds, plus a 10 stack in Gorgoroth with Nazgul should be plenty to defend Mordor from assault. You should make them waste asctions besieging your strongholds and then attack them right away, before they can take the stronghold.
3) Don't attack a nation until it's at war. This makes them waste dice. Of course, if you're completely ready to stomp out any resistence it's OK.
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Post by Glabro on Apr 22, 2005 21:37:05 GMT 1
Well, I won the game after hanging in there against the FP assaults.
How the game developed: Gandalf and Strider fled towards Umbar, once I finally attacked (after gathering all my forces ready to strike). They took Umbar from its garrison (the three regulars), and I settled down to besiege it with my nearby army. Well, what a debacle it became....how many times I attacked, I am not sure. All I know is that after about four assaults I had only one regular besieging Umbar, and had managed no 6s out of the 20 dice rolled. However, I had used the Great Host twice and thus reduced the garrison to just one regular and Gandald + Strider, despite hitting on 4s on my last attack....I still missed with everything. He´d been telling me he had Gwaihir to escape them with, but he´d apparently used its combat effect in an attempt to win the game.
Anyhow, I needed to start mustering again in Near Harad, got two elites. Boromir´s army in Morannon had been destroyed along with the brave warrior, (he almost won the game with that ploy, but at least I had some luck there with my Desperate Battle card) and the Witch King settled in to besiege Gandalf and Strider again. This time it took 3 assaults, downgrading Mumaks in the process, to get the one required six to kill them off.... So in summary I had rolled 35-40 dice and scored no sixes...not to mention some of those dice hitting on 4s or 5s.
The Elves had become active (not in the literal sense, since they already start the game as active) and had teamed up with the Dwarves to attack Mt. Gundabad, besieging it. The troops from Rivendell combined with those two pesky Rohirrim who took out Dunland threatened Moria first, then moved North to assist in the attack on Gundabad. I moved big army in Moria to relieve the siege, and he fled from me with Scouts combined with Through Night and Day (Legolas, Gimli and Merri), leaving my two biggest armies in the dust.
He used this "super-stack" to threaten both Moria and Dol Guldur, but since I took some precautions and he rolled a lot of movement, he started going towards the now weakened Mordor again - or perhaps Orthanc? In any case, I had a lot of mustering, but decided at this point to stop reacting to his moves. Earlier on I had grabbed the undefended Minas Tirith and Dol Guldur (with the Corsairs) as well as Pelargir, so I had 5 vp to start with. I then mustered the mouth of Sauron after provoking the North to war, then used my 4 muster dice (I had 5 musters and only one movement to go along with my eyes and palantirs) to move and attack with my armies, securing the Northern Free Peoples cities and strongholds which had practically no garrison, as well as Rivendell and Lorien, winning me the game.
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Post by Glabro on Apr 22, 2005 21:52:52 GMT 1
Sevenspirits, you make good points, at least.
About not attacking until they´re at war - I try to play the waiting game as much as I can afford. However, usually at that point, something else starts happening, for example, in this case, the elves and the dwarves marching to take one of my strongholds. If you´re in a situation where the Free Peoples are mostly inactive, and you don´t fear the elves....sure, it pays off to wait, especially if the opponent is not moving with the ring.
Chulainn, about the game - sure, if you want to set up an online game, I´m up for it. However, asking me to to do the same as my friend/opponent might not work out - I don´t claim to be nearly as good or experienced in doing it (handling the companions around and such), so it might be a moot point. Perhaps it´d be better if you were playing the FP and I the SP as is the norm for us!
Of course, I could try to imitate it and see how you counter it, but however, I won´t play a game just so you could "prove" how you are "absolutely right" in this case, and that winning with a FP military victory is "impossible unless the SP player is a dullard".
And another thing, if what you mean by "PBM" is mailing moves by e-mail, forget it. It would take ages, and be really, really bothersome to resolve combats, the Hunt, and everything else really.
The only thing that´d work, as I´ve said, is actually talking , using VoIP. (Teamspeak and such).
I´ve looked at the Cyberboard thingy, but it´s far too clunky.
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Post by chulainn on Apr 23, 2005 8:32:30 GMT 1
The only thing that´d work, as I´ve said, is actually talking , using VoIP. (Teamspeak and such). I´ve looked at the Cyberboard thingy, but it´s far too clunky. Of course we can use teamspeak. we can meet some afternoon (on weekend) or evening and try this out. Also there is a german player who made a really nice utility for the game, much better than the cyberboard. But you might face a problem as the cards are all german, and the map is - funny - a french one And hey -- i never said its impossible that the FP score a military victory unless the SP player is something like a dullard. I just said, it is is quite impossible to put the SP under military pressure from the beginning. And that is all i wanna prove you. I do not need someone to beat from abroad, i have enough victims here in Austria ... but i guess it when we play some rounds you will better see what i mean than if we write endless stories with only half the informations of dice, cards, etc ... Of course there might happen FP military victories when the fellowship is very close to mount doom and the whole game is on the edge ... also i dont see many and the chance for this is very small Chulainn
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Post by Jyrki on Apr 24, 2005 22:31:46 GMT 1
Of course there might happen FP military victories when the fellowship is very close to mount doom and the whole game is on the edge ... also i dont see many and the chance for this is very small Chulainn Last friday, I won by taking Umbar and Mount Gundabad in 6 turns... (and my opponent was no "beginner") I'm still thinking however that FP military victories are VERY hard to get in the beginning of the game if the opponent knows that you're looking for it. THREE dice to push the Elves, the Rohirrims, the Dwarves or the North to war is usually too much for a poor FP player. Taking 2 Strongholds with 1 FP Nation is almost impossible in the first turns (and quite difficult overall !)
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Post by jackstere on Apr 25, 2005 15:33:07 GMT 1
2) One unit each in the Mordor strongholds, plus a 10 stack in Gorgoroth with Nazgul should be plenty to defend Mordor from assault. You should make them waste asctions besieging your strongholds and then attack them right away, before they can take the stronghold. Not sure you're right about this SevenSpirits. Your defensive idea is clever which guarentees you the first strike against a besieging force but I can see a FP super stack say composed of five or six elites plus some regulars and led by perhaps both GTW and maybe even Strider/Aragorn and perhaps a lesser companion and having some nifty event cards in hand such as 'heroic sacrifice' quite possibly defeating the Gorgoroth garrison. Of course that's a lot of ands plus I suppose the Gorgoroth garrison could itself have elites but it seems to me that such a Shadow Army should be forward assaulting FP cities. It just seems from Glabro's description of his games that an FP army like this isn't at all unfeasable nor are some of these card combinations unlikely. Nevertheless it seems a decent home defense. Do you arrange this early and do you include elites in this force?
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SevenSpirits
Nazgûl
PlayTester
Sauron meant no harm. He only wanted to draw the extra cards...
Posts: 283
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Post by SevenSpirits on Apr 25, 2005 19:36:59 GMT 1
Not sure you're right about this SevenSpirits. Your defensive idea is clever which guarentees you the first strike against a besieging force but I can see a FP super stack say composed of five or six elites plus some regulars and led by perhaps both GTW and maybe even Strider/Aragorn and perhaps a lesser companion and having some nifty event cards in hand such as 'heroic sacrifice' quite possibly defeating the Gorgoroth garrison. Of course that's a lot of ands plus I suppose the Gorgoroth garrison could itself have elites but it seems to me that such a Shadow Army should be forward assaulting FP cities. It just seems from Glabro's description of his games that an FP army like this isn't at all unfeasable nor are some of these card combinations unlikely. Nevertheless it seems a decent home defense. Do you arrange this early and do you include elites in this force? Yes, this force could easily be defeated by a strong FP army as you describe. However, you would be taking a large part of the army with you, and the remaining troops would only be able to take one stronghold. (If you split an army like this, especially if it's been beaten on a lot, it becomes a LOT weaker.) At this point, you should be able to bring in another army to finish them off, before they raise another equally large army to take a second stronghold. In the games I played where the FP went military, this taking and retaking would go on for several turns. Meanwhile, the other halves of Shadow army moves would slowly help the Shadow take over the underdefended strongholds of the FP, until at some point the Shadow would just ignore the FP threats and go for the win. And no, I don't routinely put a big army in Gorgoroth; my typical Mordor defenses consist of the two guys in Nurn. However, as soon as you notice that the FP are coming at you, you have more dice than them, more units than them, defensive die roll modifiers, better placed muster spots, insanely good muster cards... I really don't think you should lose if you play it well.
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Post by darkman on Apr 26, 2005 19:24:04 GMT 1
I have found this discussion fascinating (and informative) but there is one point I have a question about: In his report Glabro wrote
Wasn't this an empty threat since you can't use Gwahir to leave a besieged stronghold?
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SevenSpirits
Nazgûl
PlayTester
Sauron meant no harm. He only wanted to draw the extra cards...
Posts: 283
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Post by SevenSpirits on Apr 26, 2005 19:41:11 GMT 1
Glabro, I have some questions for you, about games with this military strategy. I ask because I played two solo games with this strategy yesterday. The FP won one of them. The strategy is a lot better than popular opinion would indicate, though I suspect the FP still has (much?) better odds of winning by moving the FSP. However, I'm trying to figure out exactly how good the strategy is. I'll summarize the strategy (as I played it) for everyone else's benefit soon.
Anyway;
1. Why (in the game you described) were companions left in the FSP? Do you consider a ring win at all possible with this strategy?
2. Do you ever use (as FP or Shadow) event dice to draw cards? If so, which deck do you prefer as FP?
3. Does the FP like to send a companion (or more) up to the DEW-line? Who?
4. Does the SA player ever put more than 0 dice in the hunt after the first turn?
5. Does the FP tend to use ent cards for combat effects or for the events?
6. Is the FP satisfied with the dice-improving abilities of Boromir and Legolas, or do they try to get Gimli to Erebor as well?
7. How often in your games do the SA lose a die due to the WK or Saruman dying? How crucial do you think this is for a FP victory?
8. Does the FP ever win after losing GtW or Aragorn (excluding by an end-of game Heroic Death)?
Thanks, Sean
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Post by chulainn on Apr 26, 2005 20:04:45 GMT 1
I still find this discussion a bit funny. when reading the posts here i sometimes have the impression, that poor weak sauron is the one who has to be saved from the evil raiding FP forces Actually in most of our games it is the FP side hiding frightened in their strongholds looking onto the incoming hordes from the east and hoping for a miracle Chulainn
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SevenSpirits
Nazgûl
PlayTester
Sauron meant no harm. He only wanted to draw the extra cards...
Posts: 283
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Post by SevenSpirits on Apr 26, 2005 20:21:50 GMT 1
Oh, yes, it's totally ludicrous. But the strategy is actually not bad.
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Post by chulainn on Apr 26, 2005 20:23:23 GMT 1
But the strategy is actually not bad. The only downside is, that you need the shadow player for it Chulainn
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Post by jackstere on Apr 27, 2005 8:03:12 GMT 1
The only downside is, that you need the shadow player for it Chulainn Whoa. Sounds like a challenge Glabro.
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Post by Glabro on Apr 27, 2005 22:46:09 GMT 1
1. Why (in the game you described) were companions left in the FSP? Do you consider a ring win at all possible with this strategy? Some companions were left in the FSP occasionally just to threaten the SP to not ignore the FSP totally. By allocating and rolling no dice, followed by a FP roll with several swords and WotF:s could possibly change the nature of the game in one fell swoop.... Sure, if I´ve no smart cards to play. Sometimes I´ve abstained from using an event action die altogether to prevent losing card due to the maximum hand size....but only if the game appears to be really long. More often than not, Legolas/Gimli...occasionally accompanied by hobbits for the dwarves and the north. Sure, usually one. None is allocated only if the situational is critical militarily, and the FSP really isn´t moving. Yep. Gandalf often threatens Orthanc just by being in Fangorn, regardless of whether or not are any such cards are available. The only times I´ve seen the dwarves mustered to war are done with the Book of Mazarbul..... I´ve never lost a minion. As the FP I have killed off the Witch King once. It´s a great help, and definitely think it matters. However, it´s not absolutely necessary in order to accomplish a FP military victory. Well, I´ve seen the FP win after losing Aragorn earlier on, if I don´t remember wrong. One time they were close to victory (however, were defeated by an unlucky protracted combat near Moria) even though they lost both characters in Umbar. Thanks, Sean[/quote]
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