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Post by jackstere on Apr 13, 2005 19:56:00 GMT 1
From reading these posts from chulainn and glabro it seemed to me that you guys were arguing semantically with regard to what a FP blitz is. Frankly it made little difference to me how long it took for the Free Peoples to commence your described offensives at Mordor or the North. I'm just surprised to hear it could happen that Baradur in particular could fall at all . Probably the playtesters were too. Chulainn in any of the games you tested in did this EVER happen? Glabro I would be interested indeed if you took Chulainn up on his play by mail offer. Alternatively perhaps you could at least give a detailed report of your firsrt 3 or 4 turns with your friend.
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Post by chulainn on Apr 13, 2005 21:13:50 GMT 1
Frankly it made little difference to me how long it took for the Free Peoples to commence your described offensives at Mordor or the North. I'm just surprised to hear it could happen that Baradur in particular could fall at all . Probably the playtesters were too. Chulainn in any of the games you tested in did this EVER happen? Honestly it happened only in one serious game i played so far (and i doubt it will happen again). I was playing the free people and this the report A brave Gondor army in Minas Tirith got attacked by an heavy army from Osgiliath, with another Sauron army waiting in Southern Ithilien. So nevertheless Gandalf the White, Aragorn and some brave elite units were ready to resist the evil, i didnt see much of a chance to survive when withdrawing to the stronghold. And i had the cards for a nice rescue plan To the surprise of my evil enemy the army didnt withdraw and faced the orks in an open battle ... but when the dark hordes stormed onto my men, i played "The spirit of Mordor" as a battle card and retreat my army to Druadan Forest. As Helms Deep was under siege too by Saruman forces it seemed obvious to my friend, i will try to help Rohan, and he nearly felt of his chair when i played "Through a Day and a Night" next, and suddenly an Gondor army was standing in North Ithilien. Unfortunately for him he had no movement dice left and i took undefended Morannon and Barad-Dur before his army could encounter my brave Gondorians The funny thing was that in the revanche game, i was so arrogant to think my friend would never use my ideas against me ... and i was very close to walk into the same trap. But this time i had the right dice and cards to counter the Gondor army at the Gates of Mordor. Chulainn
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Post by Jyrki on Apr 13, 2005 23:20:31 GMT 1
Honestly it happened only in one serious game i played so far (and i doubt it will happen again). (...) Chulainn My last game : I got Umbar and I need ONE other Stronghold to win. - Attack on Morannon - Only ONE unit survives - A big army attacks me in Morannon (and I'm still outside the Stronghold) - I retreat to Gorgoroth - Barad-Dur is empty and it's my turn............ I got no die left (Gandalf&Aragorn just died) and I lose the game. Sad story
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Post by Glabro on Apr 14, 2005 1:36:31 GMT 1
Hmm, I really don´t know how to play the game through mail...far too much work....unless there´s a complete Cyberboard version or something out there, in which case it would work.
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Post by jackstere on Apr 14, 2005 2:41:47 GMT 1
I was playing the free people and this the report A brave Gondor army in Minas Tirith got attacked by an heavy army from Osgiliath, with another Sauron army waiting in Southern Ithilien. So nevertheless Gandalf the White, Aragorn and some brave elite units were ready to resist the evil, i didnt see much of a chance to survive when withdrawing to the stronghold. And i had the cards for a nice rescue plan To the surprise of my evil enemy the army didnt withdraw and faced the orks in an open battle ... but when the dark hordes stormed onto my men, i played "The spirit of Mordor" as a battle card and retreat my army to Druadan Forest. As Helms Deep was under siege too by Saruman forces it seemed obvious to my friend, i will try to help Rohan, and he nearly felt of his chair when i played "Through a Day and a Night" next, and suddenly an Gondor army was standing in North Ithilien. Unfortunately for him he had no movement dice left and i took undefended Morannon and Barad-Dur before his army could encounter my brave Gondorians Chulainn So Chulainn would you say that a good knowledge and command of the event cards is what you mean by 'an experienced Shadow Player'? And Glabro how much of yours or your friends victories can you attribute to perhaps being surprised by the effective use of an event card or series of them? Do you think you knew yours and your opponents card possibilities well enough to have played sufficiently well to at least blunt their impact or did you feel that in each particular game a card combo cost you the game on a certain turn? So far I can believe that this is the key to playing this game well--know your cards and if you have a good memory or can count the number of discards use some probability analysis to try to surmise what your opponent still has. Do both of you do this or do you sort of play it by ear most of the time and feel the chance element represented by the cards is generally beyond your control and shouldn't affect your army moves?
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Post by chulainn on Apr 14, 2005 5:33:26 GMT 1
So Chulainn would you say that a good knowledge and command of the event cards is what you mean by 'an experienced Shadow Player'? Well, of course there is a number of event cards, than "can" win or loose you the game under special circumstances or in combination with other cards in hand. And of course it helps you, if you have sufficient knowledge of your and your opponents cards. But "an experienced Shadow Player" i would name someone, who has a good overview of all the dark ressources. Cards are not everything. You should also be able to value the time and effort needed for special military actions, the chances of combat situations, the strategic counterplay chances of the Free People player and last but not least know how to effectivly slow the fellowship down. Do you think you knew yours and your opponents card possibilities well enough to have played sufficiently well to at least blunt their impact or did you feel that in each particular game a card combo cost you the game on a certain turn? I for myself very seldom "wait" for specific cards in the game, but always try to focus on an overall strategy, that works independent of some special events. And i always expect a "worse case scenario" when thinking about what cards my contrahent has in hand. So i seldom had the feeling so far, a special combo cost me a game, but if that happened, it is obvious i made a failure because i didnt see that combo incoming Cards are very useful, but be sure, if you desperately need a specific card for something, this is most likely the last one entering game:) Nevertheless i try to be as independent from the cards as possible, it is sometimes neccessary (or advisable) to base a plan on the appearance of a special card. But dont hesitate to change a strategy if that single card is not showing up and a further delay will cost you precious time. But that doesnt mean you cannot use your knowledge to your best. There often occur situations where you very well can wait a while for a specific card. Especially waiting for powerful battle cards when besieging a FP fortress is often a good idea So far I can believe that this is the key to playing this game well--know your cards and if you have a good memory or can count the number of discards use some probability analysis to try to surmise what your opponent still has. Do both of you do this or do you sort of play it by ear most of the time and feel the chance element represented by the cards is generally beyond your control and shouldn't affect your army moves? Of course i try to figure out in game, what cards my opponent could use. Unfortunately thats not always that easy. But if Gandalf appears in Fangorn or Aragorn appears in Rohan you might get an idea Especially because of the battle effects it can be useful to remember which cards are out of game as well. Chulainn
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Post by Glabro on Apr 14, 2005 13:50:25 GMT 1
In our first game, both of us had absolutely no idea what cards there were in either decks. In our second, we were aware of at least half of them (the ones played in the first game) and so on.
I knew beforehand that knowledge of the cards would be a major factor, and we agreed not to study them beforehand - that´d been really dull and taken out the surprises in the first games.
It´s a bit like when people read through the cards in humouristic card games (aka Munchkin), and thus are not surprised or amused when the cards actually are played out in the game....really dull, in my mind.
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Post by redsimon on Apr 14, 2005 14:03:37 GMT 1
My last game : I got Umbar and I need ONE other Stronghold to win. - Attack on Morannon - Only ONE unit survives - A big army attacks me in Morannon (and I'm still outside the Stronghold) - I retreat to Gorgoroth - Barad-Dur is empty and it's my turn............ I got no die left (Gandalf&Aragorn just died) and I lose the game. Sad story Die they die in that turn or in the turn before? Because if they died in that turn, you would keep the dice for that turn as it says in the FAQ.
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Post by Jyrki on Apr 14, 2005 23:49:35 GMT 1
Die they die in that turn or in the turn before? Because if they died in that turn, you would keep the dice for that turn as it says in the FAQ. They died in the turn before.
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Post by Jyrki on Apr 14, 2005 23:54:29 GMT 1
To Glabro : As the FP, how do you keep your 4 VPs until the end of the turn ? When the SP has a lot of dice, it's very hard....
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Post by jackstere on Apr 16, 2005 18:15:58 GMT 1
Glabro if you haven't already read it there is an interesting general strategy post by WilloftheWest in the tactics section of this forum. Have either you or your friend tried this SA strategy and if not it seems it might be helpful in thwarting a FP Northern armies buildup which is where you seem to be getting most of your early pressure. I'm not yet sure you should do this as the SA in conjunction with an early or late minion strategy (though I'm inclined to think late minion but at the same time he does seem to use Saruman's forces in the North rather than against Rohan. Early Saruman could work pretty well though for quick action int he North. I like his logic in forcing the FP to use his dice to activate Gondor, Rohan, or anyone else and then not needing ultimately to seize Minas Tirith or Helm's Deep at all. Think this might be a good strategic plan for you as the SP? The post I'm referring to can be found in the "Best Objectives for Shadow " thread on the very first page.
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Post by Jyrki on Apr 18, 2005 12:20:31 GMT 1
To Glabro : As the FP, how do you keep your 4 VPs until the end of the turn ? When the SP has a lot of dice, it's very hard.... Maybe that was the explanation : they didn't wait until the end of the turn before counting VPs...
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Post by jackstere on Apr 18, 2005 15:34:10 GMT 1
Maybe that was the explanation : they didn't wait until the end of the turn before counting VPs... I doubt that's what happened since Glabro says he and friend are playing the game correctly and I tend to believe him. Still you make a good point.... I'm surprised by the carnage he describes as having happened in Mordor in his games. But as yet I can't really comment difinitively since I have not completed any games. I'd sure like to see a detailed look at say their first four or five turns.
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Post by Jyrki on Apr 18, 2005 17:02:51 GMT 1
I doubt that's what happened since Glabro says he and friend are playing the game correctly and I tend to believe him. Still you make a good point.... I'm surprised by the carnage he describes as having happened in Mordor in his games. But as yet I can't really comment difinitively since I have not completed any games. I'd sure like to see a detailed look at say their first four or five turns. I NEVER found someone who plays the game correctly (before playing with me : the FAQ fanatic !) And I played with a lot of different players, from different backgrounds. I think that almost everyone who played WotR has done, at the very least, one "mistake". And the translation can be terrible sometimes (like in the french version).
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Post by jackstere on Apr 18, 2005 17:20:39 GMT 1
I NEVER found someone who plays the game correctly (before playing with me : the FAQ fanatic !) And I played with a lot of different players, from different backgrounds. I think that almost everyone who played WotR has done, at the very least, one "mistake". And the translation can be terrible sometimes (like in the french version). Perhaps so but not knowing exactly when you can claim victory seems like a pretty big gaffe. You could be right about language translation problems...guess we'll have to wait and see if Glabro or Chulainn have anything further to add.
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