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Post by Glabro on Apr 11, 2005 0:41:48 GMT 1
Well, yesterday and today we switched sides, and I was able to pull off a military victory as the Free Peoples myself. I tried three times, but was always beaten by lucky dice rolling (rolling 8 out of 8 of the dice for potential movement/attack when he was in a pinch to retake what he lost, TWICE) until at the last I was able to beat the Witch King´s army with the same Rohirrim / Elven army that had taken Orthanc earlier on, and drive on to Umbar as he strenghtened the defences of Mordor.
While keeping up this pressure, I was even able to walk the Fellowship to step two of the Mordor track despite him succeeding on every single hunt roll bar one or two in the game.
Now I truly do wonder.....what is it that we´re doing differently compared to you playtesters as well as the designers? Surely this constant pressure done by the FREE PEOPLES, despite us switching sides, is not something that should happen (and no, we are not playing the rules wrong).
I would really want as many of you as possible to try this out yourself. Try an aggressive Free Peoples military strategy, and see how it goes.
It might be that many people get into the passive-defensive mindset (of course I shouldn´t attack!) instead of taking the initiative and making your opponent react to YOU instead of the other way round....
In a way, I´m happy that I can tell you this, as this should no doubt erase the doubts from your mind that I am a completely inept player, or that my opponent would just totally outclass me because of the successful FP military blitzes. However, it does confirm, in my eyes, that there is a problem....unless this is actually intended - a game where the chances of a FP military victory are more than real - even likely if played right.
Would, perhaps, the strategy of attacking the FP immediately where they are mustering help? Taking the battle to them means that even if you ultimately lose, they´ll be several moves away from your weakened strongholds, and you´ll be able to recruit back those trolls (or whavever) that you used to attack.
Or perhaps it is the Easterlings you should concentrate on, perhaps after blitzing Rohan, because using them to attack does not weaken your own defenses in any way?
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Post by jackstere on Apr 11, 2005 3:33:08 GMT 1
Well I never thought you or your opponent were inept players. Indeed quite the contrary. I did suspect that perhaps you had the activation rules wrong for a while but you answered every query by others here well. These posts were of interest to me precisely because I have a friend who always seems to be able to do just what you and your friend did here--look beyond the obvious and preconceived mindset someone will get himself into before playing a boardgame especially one like this which is based on a book. He too is the type of player who will disect a game's probabilities (in this case by closely examining the event cards). I have yet to play a game having only recently purchased it but this will be useful warning for me to be careful or perhaps be even more agressive with the shadow forces early. Guess that's what we all need to know now--maybe the shadow needs to muster more before sallying forth and hopefully force the FP to actually move the fellowship Sooo...perhaps this is a sort of moment of truth for the game and its design. Is it flawed somehow or perhaps the Shadow tactics just need a bit of reevaluation? I should like to see if the designers themselves can emulate what you've done perhaps more than 50% of the time. If so and it becomes clear this is a better idea the destroying the Ring (and it certainly appears to be more entertaining anyway) then it would appear the rules might need some tweaking. Ahh- maybe the expansion could even do this. Glabo how did your SP player start in this game since he had full knowledge of FP capability? What was his general strategy to counter his own idea?
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Post by chulainn on Apr 11, 2005 6:26:08 GMT 1
Glabroif you want we are able to make a correct analysis of this strategy you should post a detailed report of one game once. This should include a turn summary, with at least the following : 1. Dice put in the huntbox + additional eyes 2. Politic Events 3. Heavy army movements (number of units, to which region) 4. Movements of the Fellowship + sucess of hunt 5. Movement and actions of the companions 6. Eventcards with "heavy impact" on the game. Actually i always like to play the FP as active as possible, but from all i know, the strategy you outline here just can work if the FP in average has at least about the same number of dice available. So without knowing more i would say this is the reason for your results. Chulainn
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Post by Glabro on Apr 11, 2005 16:21:54 GMT 1
A complete report with detailed turn-by-turn summaries is simply too much of a bother for me to do, sorry. I´d have to stop after each turn to write it up, etc. and that wouldn´t add to my fun at all.
I can tell you that personally, I put on average one die in the hunt pool in the games where the FP blitzed me militarily, and on the turns I was in a pinch I went for 0. However, on a couple of those turns where the Free Peoples were about to win the game militarily I rolled a total of 5-6 eyes+palantirs (and musters, in some cases), meaning I had extremely limited movement when I really needed it. I did go for the late minion strategy a couple of times, however, and even prevented the appearance of Gandalf the White or Aragorn one time - but still lost militarily.
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Post by Krieghund on Apr 11, 2005 17:45:29 GMT 1
Glabro, please describe in detail the "typical" Shadow military strategy you guys are using.
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Post by Glabro on Apr 11, 2005 18:57:16 GMT 1
Well, in my first games, I went for a "Gondor first" strategy, pulling Mordor and the S&E into war and attacking Gondor to prevent Aragorn´s appearance, this coupled with a late minion strategy to prevent Gandalf the White.
One time I tried attacking Lorien first with Dol Guldur and the Easterlings, but could not crack that stronghold.
The most successful Shadow game started by me gobbling up Rohan with Isengard & Saruman, but even in that game the FP put me under pressure. I did learn that if Rohan starts mustering and Isengard is not ready, it will fall under the Rohirrim might.
The main errors I can from a Shadow perspective is not applying enough pressure from the very start (a successful blitz of Rohan helps immensely) as well as attacking with the most vulnerable armies first (Mordor - if you lose in Gondor, you are in trouble). The real trouble starts if the FP has you on the defensive, defending strongholds, where you can´t afford to attack him outright (or you´ll lose the stronghold because your garrison is smaller than his army of 6+ elites), but used up all your models so that you can´t recruit any more to defend the place he does attack.
I would think that the best thing to do would be to attack the Free Peoples everywhere where they are mustering troops and gathering armies, going for their strongest points instead of trying to score VPs fast by attacking the weaker locations, and thus allowing the strong FP armies to put you on the defensive. The SP must make it a war of attrition ASAP, and fight as far away from its own vulnerable strongholds as possible.
This is why I am thinking that an attack with the Easterlings, after building them up, is the best choice - it puts none of your own strongholds at jeopardy. However, you must be sure to put all factions to war to be able to instantly react to his musterings, and attack wherever he is doing so. At first, it would make sense to attack the Elves as they are the only active ones at the start, but after seeing my attack on Lorien fail, I am hesitant...but perhaps that was because of his lucky event cards....
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Post by Krieghund on Apr 11, 2005 19:30:15 GMT 1
I would think that the best thing to do would be to attack the Free Peoples everywhere where they are mustering troops and gathering armies, going for their strongest points instead of trying to score VPs fast by attacking the weaker locations, and thus allowing the strong FP armies to put you on the defensive. The SP must make it a war of attrition ASAP, and fight as far away from its own vulnerable strongholds as possible. This makes sense. Many Shadow Players believe that the best strategy is to hold off on attacking FP armies or entering FP territories until all of the Shadow armies are in position for a massive offensive. This keeps the FP from activating nations and getting to War (and thus mustering) without using large numbers of Muster and Character dice to move the nations on the political track and get the Companions to nations to activate them. Then, when the time to attack comes, hit all the major Strongholds as quickly as possible to get them under siege so they can't be reinforced through mustering. Under these circumstances, the armies of Mordor and Harad should be enough to keep Gondor from breaking out and attacking Mordor. BTW, you should never put zero dice in the Hunt Box. If you don't roll any Eyes, the Fellowship can make as many free moves as the FP has Character dice (or Will of the West or Elven Rings) on that turn.
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Post by chulainn on Apr 11, 2005 20:25:09 GMT 1
Well, in my first games, I went for a "Gondor first" strategy, pulling Mordor and the S&E into war and attacking Gondor to prevent Aragorn´s appearance, this coupled with a late minion strategy to prevent Gandalf the White. Well, a Gondor first strategy is never wrong. If you can prevent Aragorn in Gondor, even better. Mordor and S&E (and Saruman) bringing to war is almost a "must" in the first rounds. Ok i know there are people really favour the late minion strategy, but my opinion is that it just does not work. Simply spoken: The ringwar is a game of dice. The more dice the more power. Gandalf the White is of course a mighty weapon on the FP side, but with playing the late minion strategy you restrict your game in ALL possible variants, because there might be SOME variants where you have to face Gandalf the White. As Gandalf is also a strong guide of the companions, and the FP does not always have the dice needed for a powerful approach of GtW, it is not sure you ever see him in game. And even if GtW appears, it is by far not sure, he will find a region, where he can grow to his real power. Due to his limited movement abilities in comparison with the nazgul, GtW might be able to stop the Shadow on ONE specific fortress, but not more. Besides that, the shadow usually can bring Saruman and the WK earlier than the FP can bring Gandalf. (On my last FP game f.e. i got my first WotW-die in round 7! ... and than i needed it for something else more urgent) With a late minion strategy you might loose maybe 10 or more dice, and this is way too much for the benefit of preventing GtW in SOME games. So my advice is, always go for the maximum dice. Muster Saruman or the WK at least in round 2 (which should be possible almost every game). One time I tried attacking Lorien first with Dol Guldur and the Easterlings, but could not crack that stronghold. This isnt a bad idea to conquer Lorien. Anyway i personally would not attack Lorien as a prime target in the early rounds of the game (except i have some really good event cards forcing this), but in the finish, when the Shadow is looking for his last VP. The most successful Shadow game started by me gobbling up Rohan with Isengard & Saruman, but even in that game the FP put me under pressure. I did learn that if Rohan starts mustering and Isengard is not ready, it will fall under the Rohirrim might. This is an option. I personally prefer a Gondor-first-strategy, as this really limits the military options of the FP, but (with the right event cards) a hard military strike to Rohan isnt that bad as well. Assuming you do not stay with your late-minion-strategy, you almost every round will have a majority on dice, and in that case it is IMPOSSIBLE that Rohan outmusters Isengard. The main errors I can from a Shadow perspective is not applying enough pressure from the very start (a successful blitz of Rohan helps immensely) as well as attacking with the most vulnerable armies first (Mordor - if you lose in Gondor, you are in trouble). If you strike hard on Gondor first, you cannot come in trouble easily. Without muster anything else than the missing nazgul (you need them all!) you can put 2 10-unit-armies from Mordor and 1 10-unit-army from the Easterlings toward Gondor within the first 3-5 rounds (depending on dice and overall strategy). In our last game for example the shadow in round 5 puts Dol Amroth under besiege, with 1 army standing in Osgiliath and the second 1 step behind. The FP had 4 muster dice until than ... not much to muster at all to stop 30 units. As you said, if you loose in Gondor, the shadow has trouble. So Gondor is the prime target. You do not even have to conquer both Gondor fortresses (also i recommend it), but you have to be stop them from mustering there (besiege them). The real trouble starts if the FP has you on the defensive, defending strongholds, where you can´t afford to attack him outright (or you´ll lose the stronghold because your garrison is smaller than his army of 6+ elites), but used up all your models so that you can´t recruit any more to defend the place he does attack. This will never happen And i really wonder where you find a 6+ elite-FP army. The only chance for that would be a combined Gondor/Rohan army or a Elves/North army, and both is very unlikely to occur. If you cannot recruit because of you used all your units already, i would call this a strategic failure. It was one of the first things i learned you have to "use" your sauron armies in battles, if you plan reinforcements somewhere else. I would think that the best thing to do would be to attack the Free Peoples everywhere where they are mustering troops and gathering armies, going for their strongest points instead of trying to score VPs fast by attacking the weaker locations, and thus allowing the strong FP armies to put you on the defensive. The SP must make it a war of attrition ASAP, and fight as far away from its own vulnerable strongholds as possible. Its not that easy. I think a major step to sucess is to put the FP under pressure as fast as possible. The first problem of the FP is that they cannot easily muster somewhere. It needs time to bring a nation at war, and if the FP waits for the shadow attacks to move a nation down the politic track, its too late for heavy musters. The second problem of the FP often is, that they do not really know where to muster. Ok, me for example always go for Gondor, so my opponent knows this and might try to bring Gondor early at war and muster. But for the other VP the Shadow has a wide variety of plans. He can choose to go for the DEW-Line, he can choose a Rohan strategy with just getting the 2 missing VP in Lorien/Woodlands/Imladris whereever. The point is, that the FP cannot make all fortresses ready for fight. This is impossible. Just let the FP stay nervous. And declare your aims at the latest possible moment. This is why I am thinking that an attack with the Easterlings, after building them up, is the best choice - it puts none of your own strongholds at jeopardy. However, you must be sure to put all factions to war to be able to instantly react to his musterings, and attack wherever he is doing so. At first, it would make sense to attack the Elves as they are the only active ones at the start, but after seeing my attack on Lorien fail, I am hesitant...but perhaps that was because of his lucky event cards.... Easterlings should always be a part of the strategy. To move the southern army to Dol Amroth is almost a standard opening. "If" you have the event cards for an immediate attack on the DEW-Line that is also a desirable target. But if you have not, do other things first. As said before i do not think the elves are a desirable first target. Their muster ability is very limited and they cannot concentrate on more than on one fortress. So just look what they do. Also i personally would leave the elves alone in most cases. In generally it is hard to say what is the "best" plan for the shadow, as it always depends on the available event cards. The dumb following of a prior sucessful strategy might fail, if you do not have the event cards for that strategy. The shadow has many plans to put pressure on the battlefields of middle earth. But what i can tell you for sure ... there "is no" military blitz tactic available for the FP
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Post by Glabro on Apr 12, 2005 11:30:22 GMT 1
This makes sense. Many Shadow Players believe that the best strategy is to hold off on attacking FP armies or entering FP territories until all of the Shadow armies are in position for a massive offensive. Yes, this is indeed the general idea. But well-played cards and separated companions can bring the Free Peoples into war quicker than expected, and the elves are always active. Well, I will put 0 dice in the hunt pool when the Fellowship has been adandoned (has only Gollum and isn´t even past Moria yet) and when I am just about to lose militarily. If, at that point, he decides to send the fellowship flying, I breathe a sigh of relief.
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Post by Glabro on Apr 12, 2005 12:01:12 GMT 1
So my advice is, always go for the maximum dice. Muster Saruman or the WK at least in round 2 (which should be possible almost every game).
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Post by chulainn on Apr 12, 2005 14:57:53 GMT 1
there is no need to get personal. you asked for advice to prevent a "FP military blitz" and i gave you some. dont blame me, if you are not willing to try them out and you are facing the problems you told about. Saruman should be mustered if you´re going to attack Rohan. Bringing him out for just the die doesn´t make sense ... I am sorry, but that "is" wrong. Assuming a game lasts for around 9-12 rounds, Saruman grants you a bonus round for actions. That is worth everything. Cannot? Well, I can tell you that without mustering much besides the Nazgul, the Mordor / Southron attack on Gondor can very well fail. You are right, we should never say "never" in a game where are dice. But ... assuming the shadow does all he need for a military strategy ... he can start a shadow blitz on Gondor without mustering a single army unit and in 9 of 10 games he will straight succeed. Of course you cannot do this with permanently 5 dice in the hunt box. or with following other plans on the map as well. But by concentrating on Gondor in the beginning, with 9 dice in game and not more than 2 dice in the hunt box on average you can. The trouble is that you´re completely ignoring the possibility of powerful event cards aiding the FP, and that if all the companions are separated, it is a VERY different game from your usual game where the FP player keeps them in the Fellowship. Has your opponent ever emptied the Fellowship....? Its an interesting thing that you know what i am ignoring Actually believe me i know all FP battlecards by heart, as i always try to play th FP as active as possible. In almost every game it is possible i try to get Aragorn and Gandalf there as soon as possible (because i do not like the FP strategy is reduced to running the fellowship). The sad reality is, that facing an agressive opponent in many games you will not bring them to MT in time, because you do not get the dice. Besides that, i never said, the FP cannot play on the battlefield. What i refuse is the possibility of a "military FP blitz". That IS impossible (between experienced players), unless the shadow player completely concentrates on the hunt. Per definition a "blitz" attack should be a major military approach within the first 6-8 rounds of the game, otherwise i would not call it a "blitz" anymore. Imagine the scenario where you have taken the WK and Saruman out, the FP has Gandalf the White somewhere in the North. You attack Gondor with everything in Mordor, very possibly getting bogged down by Minas Tirith and the chain of forts or perhaps you take everything at one fell swoop - hey, good for you! But at the same time, the activated Northmen and Elves are using everything to muster and move troops in the North, moving them to a location almost equidistant from Moria, Dol Guldur and Mount Gundabad. Gandalf the White is with this army. Congratulations! You are on the defensive. I am sorry to say that, but all these plans we have tried out long ago. Of course Gandalf the White is a great weapon on side of the FP. But this strategy simply is too slow. Just count how many dice you need to bring North and Elves at war, and muster a 10-unit-army in the north, bringing Gandalf there. And than just move the army to Dol Goldur (which is the closest target). How many dice you think you will need? About 20? And now try to get 20 free available dice in the game for this. There might be games where you are not even able to bring GtW on the board before the game is over. Of course the free people "can" resist the shadow on the battlefields ... but they need a lot of "ifs" for that ... if Gandalf the White and Aragorn reach Gondor in time, if they get the highly needed battlecards, if they get the right dice to muster, if if if ... The shadow on the other hand can follow his main offensive quite independent from the dice. So there will be games where the shadow has to face an active FP army, but this cannot be forced by the FP and by far it will not be possible in every game. But "if" that happens, the shadow has enough options to face this. I can understand if none of your opponents never have the guts to try this "because they have so few dice", but applying those dice where the enemy is not strong, and achieving local superiority, is indeed possible! It might be possible, of course, to get local superiority with GtW there. But as long as you cannot force to reach 4 VP within at least around turn 9 this doesnt really matter. Getting really annoying, you declaring that what happened in our games are impossibities and can never happen. Remember, it´s not a case of one of us being an incompetent idiot, even after we switched sides the same thing happened! I'm sorry but that havent been my words. I said, IF you are following the ideas i pointed out, what happened in your games is impossible. And thats a quite different thing. Besides that i didnt say these things never happened in our games. Playing is learning. Of course our first games had been quite different from the ones we play now. But with every game you get the chance to improve your game play, and we play about half a year now (every week). It might be difficult to prove this, as i live in austria ... but if you are willing to play a game per mail, i will take the challenge. And i am sure you will win your games too. But i garantee you, that not in 100 games you will win a single game with a military FP blitz. You could argue that a very experienced Shadow Player will not ever allow this to happen, but....is the game designed to play out like this only with experienced players? I do not see where your problem is. I am sure we learned by the same failures as all other people playing this game regularely. But when you ask for advice, i didnt know you ask for an advice for unexperienced players Besides that, the personal reason i really had the desire to answer this posting had been my last 2 games as FP last weekend. As always i tried to play an active role on the battlefields. Alone it is very difficult to do this, if you need GtW and Aragorn for a Gondor counter strategy and you did not get a single WotW-die until round 7 (which happened in my first game). In round 8 the game was over by the way. In the second game i got 19 character dice until the end of the game, along with 12 palanthirs but with only 5 musters (2 of them army movement/muster) and NO single event muster card for rohan and Gondor. And it is a bit funny to read of a FP military blitz than this was not an assault on you, but i hope you can understand Chulainn
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Post by Glabro on Apr 13, 2005 0:53:38 GMT 1
All right, Chulainn, I can believe you that when the Shadow player is very experienced, he won´t let the FP do what I described in my games. Fair enough. However, all I´m saying is, when the players are not experienced, the FP military victory is a very real chance. And that does count for something in my book.
I´ll keep those hints you gave in mind. It´s true I didn´t realize you actually meant to say "if you do this, then this is impossible" instead of "this is impossible unless you are a total moron".
About Saruman, I wasn´t clear enough, perhaps - I wouldn´t hold out on taking him for 12 turns - just until I have prepared my initial strike with Mordor & S&E, if I´m not going for Rohan first. However, it´s true that holding out on him depends on what has happened with Gandalf the Grey - if he´s been separated (this would probably only happen if he´s abandoning the ring victory) or dead, a dice for you and GTW + a dice for him isn´t a good tradeoff. That´s all I´m saying.
However, Saruman + WK together are worth more than one GtW....
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Post by chulainn on Apr 13, 2005 8:19:34 GMT 1
So we have peace again By the way i didnt want to say too, that the immediate assault on Gondor and the fastest possible military blitz of the shadow is a tactic thats always working (also it is "my" personal favorite). Of course this strategy has some drawbacks too (as the fellowship might start to fly on their way to mount doom). But if you are afraid of military actions of the Free people this strategy reduces their chances (at least for many rounds) to an absolute minimum. And as you always should consider your "enemy" in a game as well, if you face an offensive player (like me for example), he just might be half way to loose because he cant play "his" preferred strategy. And a last comment - there is no reason why not combine this strategy with a slower shadow setup: Try to put the free people under heavy pressure the first rounds ... and "if" the free people player seeks his fortune in a speed run of the fellowship (and obviously giving up his military ambitions), than you swith yourself to a slower pace and concentrate more on the hunt. Chulainn
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Post by Jyrki on Apr 13, 2005 12:25:13 GMT 1
I often try to win military with the FP. But it's very very hard in the beginning (with a "blitz"). Why ? Too much Muster dice to put the Elves (or anyone else) to war. My opponents only attack Gondor most of the time and I just don't have enough dice to do everything (even with GtW AND Elessar). How can you put your Nations to war early when you're the FP without losing every single Muster die you have ? I really want to know.
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Post by Glabro on Apr 13, 2005 13:10:09 GMT 1
I wouldn´t say that a blitz requires you to do it early. Only suddenly And greetings to a fellow Finn, Jyrki!
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