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Post by genghissean on Nov 20, 2007 10:40:44 GMT 1
Although I love the way the ents work now, marching instead of suddenly "appearing" in Orthanc, many, including myself, find the ents very weak in Twilight. If you are lucky enough to get all three ent cards relatively back to back (or you throw away a lot of other cards collecting them), they seem to be near useless. ONCE i rolled 15 die, for one hit, enough to kill a wild man in the Fords. (oooh My opponent just forfeited the game in disbelief and confusion.) My hobbit would have been better off throwing stones than sitting half the game in Fangorn. Something needs to be done, but not too much.
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Post by magicgeek on Nov 21, 2007 1:06:37 GMT 1
I am of the opinion Ents should be automatically mustered on the 5th die of the game. (provided no first turn King option, and Shadow has musters)
While your demonstration of their reduction in power is relevant, In the old game Ents affected Rohan and Orthanc. I have used the new Ents on Moria, Lorien, Dol Guldur and Southrons on the coast marching to the Shire. The old Ents you believe were weakened can't do this.
The old Ents did not turn off the most powerful muster engine in the game, The Voice. Before Sauron is at war, there are 4 Nazgul and just maybe Mr Hunty. Wolves can get 6 mobile leadership at the start of the game, before Sauron is at war, generally before Galadriel. New Ents can stop 60% of Shadow Leadership.
"many, including myself, find the ents very weak in Twilight" And some of Us do not.
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Post by kwojtasz on Nov 21, 2007 21:30:55 GMT 1
Then Ents can be problematic if you don't draw an Ent card... but atleast in that case the Voice is lessened and the SP doesn't know you don't have an Ent card...
I have to lean toward liking the Ents in play.
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Post by mrweasely on Nov 21, 2007 22:43:03 GMT 1
While I agree that ents suck badly, I can't vote for any poll options, because I think they won't fix the suckage very well.
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Post by Lord Aragorn on Nov 22, 2007 13:21:24 GMT 1
I have a similar opinion about this and I like the new Ents. However, they still can, and maybe need to be improved. Because of that I voted for "Yes! They should have 5 die on 4+", but I still didn't try that option in the game.
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Post by gandalfrocks on Nov 22, 2007 15:31:26 GMT 1
The ents are very good, in my opinion. I like them a lot better than in the old game. They are just as hard to get as it was in the first game, as you still needed the cards to be able to use the ents. I think the ents offer the FP a lot of veratility. I have used the ents many times to launch a suprise attack on Moria, if I managed to get the another Shadow Stronghold. the card also has to change from having Gandalf in Fangorn to Merry or Pippin in Fangorn. The problem with having Gandalf, is that that what if Gandalf has gone off and bravely sacrificed himself in Woodland Realm. He never even mustered the Ents in the books, it was Merry and Pippin who did it.
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Post by genghissean on Nov 23, 2007 11:47:23 GMT 1
Perhaps my rolling has been bad, but you say "I used them in Moria" with only one card, you get 1 attack normally (for me) 1 hit. That is a lot of die and planning for no effect. I don't even bother anymore until I have two cards back to back. I agree, why does Gandalf have to be in play? Maybe that's the solution. New poll ideas! Also, FP should be able to MUSTER ents so that you have some type of force with only 1 card. Or start off with at least two.
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Post by magicgeek on Nov 25, 2007 2:55:16 GMT 1
"with only one card, you get 1 attack normally (for me) 1 hit."
OK. Some the rules of the majority should be based on your unlucky results?
Have you considered using Gandalf for a while, getting a second Ent Card and then killing the Witch King at Lorien?
"FP should be able to MUSTER ents"
We have thought about letting Ents be mustered on a WoW. But I dont think it is a good idea.
"Or start off with at least two." But the point of the Ents is they have to be offended to be really useful, or it may just take a long time. Eventually all three Ent card will always turn up, pity Frodo is most likely dead by then.
I like the expansion Ents a lot. In my games a Hobbit is in Fanghorn 70% of the time.
Rohan is SOOO strong, sometimes it can actually defend itself. Sometimes it can liberate itself. Rohan has more cards, and Ents, and Gondor, and the king wants to go through it, and come back to it.
If they were more reliable, and less variable, they just wouldn't feel like ents. I really dont see what you lot are complaining about.
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Post by genghissean on Nov 25, 2007 15:23:38 GMT 1
"rules change for your unlucky results" If you role 5 dice ten times. How often do you get more than one hit? if any. try it and then tell me if I am unlucky.
"all ent cards usually come up" That has happens maybe 1 every ten games, and yes it is usually to late if you waited for all three.
"Tried killing the WK in Lorien" I have not seen the WK sitting in Lorien with 1 orc lately. (the usual amont of hits you will get with 1 ent card), now two cards back to back gives u 15 tries. Max 4 hits, if you get really lucky maybe more. Again "ONE CARD IS USELESS IN THE EXPANSION!"
AT the least, the ents should be mustered with TWO Ents in Fangorn and makes 1 card at least a plausible stradegy. That's all I am asking for, 1 more Ent then.
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SevenSpirits
Nazgûl
PlayTester
Sauron meant no harm. He only wanted to draw the extra cards...
Posts: 283
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Post by SevenSpirits on Nov 25, 2007 21:13:37 GMT 1
You are unlucky. I just tried it and got more than one hit 5 out of 10 times (or course this isn't a very useful test). On average you get 1.67 hits each time, which is closer to two. Also, you said you usually got one hit per card. About half the time, the card rolls 10 dice for you, giving you more than three hits. MAX 4 hits?? The average hits in 15 dice is FIVE! If you get two of the ent cards, they are definitely not bad. Overall the ents in the expansion get played less, because with the original ents you really might as well play them (they don't cost any actions). But they are stronger in the expansion. Though in my opinion, still not strong enough.
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Post by gebler on Nov 26, 2007 13:55:50 GMT 1
"I have used the new Ents on Moria, Lorien, Dol Guldur and Southrons on the coast marching to the Shire."
The Shire!! Maybe magic geek has "Magic Flying Ents", my expansion unfortunately came with the normal weak ones.
"The old Ents did not turn off the most powerful muster engine in the game, The Voice. New Ents can stop 60% of Shadow Leadership."
By the time you get a hobbit in Fangorn, he already has at least 5 leaders. (unless you blitz with Aaragorn and a Hobbit 1st turn and have the right dice). Thus hinders regeneration of "60%" does not "turn off"
"1.67" cool statistic Spirits. But... Sauruman normally leaves 1 wildman in fords and Orthanc, they're like only half hits. If he has only 1 Uruk and 1 Wildman in each of Orthanc and fords and you get 1 hit 1st ent, three hits 2nd ent, then move into Fords 3 Ent, attack 4 Ent and 1 hit, you've used 2 cards and don't have much to show for it.
I agree with Genghis, starting off with 2 Ents would solve everything.
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Post by genghissean on Nov 26, 2007 17:47:44 GMT 1
"Magic Flying Ents"
I think, Gebler, that Spirits means cutting the march off in Durwaith Laur. Its only 1 away from the Fords. Which still means with 1 wildman there, you still need two cards to Blitz the marching Southrons.
Which makes me ask, what are the Southrons doing way over there? Flying Elephants maybe?
Hey! We have finally come up with a good use of the corsairs! Avoiding the "Ents costal Blitz".
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SevenSpirits
Nazgûl
PlayTester
Sauron meant no harm. He only wanted to draw the extra cards...
Posts: 283
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Post by SevenSpirits on Nov 27, 2007 9:21:33 GMT 1
"1.67" cool statistic Spirits. But... Sauruman normally leaves 1 wildman in fords and Orthanc, they're like only half hits. If he has only 1 Uruk and 1 Wildman in each of Orthanc and fords and you get 1 hit 1st ent, three hits 2nd ent, then move into Fords 3 Ent, attack 4 Ent and 1 hit, you've used 2 cards and don't have much to show for it. Yeah, I totally agree and that's why I rarely get the ents. However, when you use them against Lorien you usually don't have this problem. And at least the threat of them apparently makes your opponent waste four guys guarding Saruman. Personally I only leave the one guy in fords usually, which means Saruman is killable with two cards. It still never happens. I think the "leaving single guys in places" strategy is pretty cheesy, so I like the house rule where if the ent kills the last unit in a region, you place him there instead of eliminating him.
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Post by gebler on Nov 29, 2007 16:54:21 GMT 1
Great house rule Spirits!
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Post by sam gamgee on Jan 11, 2008 23:45:21 GMT 1
My vote was for 5 dice hitting on 4+. Because the ents are a precarious effect (the conditions for them to be used may never be met) they should be more effective then a 33% chance of hitting when they do come out to play. But I would be more in favour of changes that allowed you to Muster more Ents, or allowed them activations independent of card play. I have posted an ent variant in the Expansion House Rules: veldrin.proboards22.com/index.cgi?board=houserules&action=display&thread=1199382514Because I thought of it, I of course think its perfect. ;D Sevenspirits, I like your House Rule too. EDIT: spelling mistake
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