|
Post by mrweasely on Aug 31, 2006 0:36:24 GMT 1
My new thinking is that Lorien is untenable. It should be rushed early. Even if the eleves manage to dig in fully, say four elites, a regular, and two catapults, it should still be brought down as target #1.
The worst case defense is not so bad as one would think, since they can only ever have 3 regulars, they start dropping dice pretty quickly.
Galadriel's imperative to replenish losses means she can't (or shouldn't) sacrifice catapults, which means Trolls and Wolves control the time flow of the siege.
"What a nightmare" you're thinking. "That'll put me way behind militarily", you're thinking. The best part is after you win. The fellowship is probably at 4-5 dice, and they'll probably kill off Gandalf the Grey quickly.
More importantly, the elven muster bag is bare. No other Free nations are at war. That greatly simplifies the force calculations for taking elven strongholds. Havens/Rivendell/Wooden Realm can all be easily taken with 6-hit armies and a Deadly Strife. Just gobble up those elvenhomes and then snag two defenseless cities, and you're done.
There are many, many cards that make this easier. Here's my top 10.
10 Durin's Bane 9 Hill Trolls 8 Shadow Lengthens (2x2) 7 A New Power Is Rising 6 The Ringwraiths are Abroad 5 Deep Trenches and Great Engines 4 Shadows Gather (3x1) Dul Guldur and Dunland are 3 spaces from Lorien 3 Grond, Hammer of the Underworld 2 Shadows on the Misty Mountains 1 The Fighting Uruk-Hai
The main defending cards are: 2 Celeborn's Glamdrim recruit that elite using an event die...oooh! 1 A Power too Great gain a tempo if you get it early...oooh!
Somehow these are underwhelming!
|
|
|
Post by Goodgulf the Grey on Aug 31, 2006 17:09:51 GMT 1
I agree that Lorien is a prime target for the shadow early (even with Galadriel's abilities). A well timed SP attack on Lorien early in the game on a turn when the FP has very few Muster dice can be devestating for the Golden Wood. Eliminating Galadriel either via denial or destruction are of prime importance to the SP in the expansion.
I'm not 100% convinced that Galadriel has an imperative to replenish losses instead of sacrificing catapults. The FP has only 4 Elven Elites to work with and sometimes it is better to draw out the siege via catapults and then have Elites left to defend Woodland Realm. It just depends on how the game is going and if the FP player expects the other Elven Strongholds to be targets later.
Also, this theory leads me to muster other FP nations instead of the Elves in many games so that they can help defend the Elven Strongholds if needed, but of course this makes Galadriel denial more effective...
|
|
|
Post by mrweasely on Aug 31, 2006 17:35:24 GMT 1
Catapults would be better if there weren't three trump cards in the shadow deck that circumvent them: Deep Trenches, Uruk Hai, and Grond.
|
|
|
Post by mrweasely on Sept 6, 2006 6:22:25 GMT 1
More importantly, the elven muster bag is bare. No other Free nations are at war. That greatly simplifies the force calculations for taking elven strongholds. Havens/Rivendell/Wooden Realm can all be easily.... As my president is wont to say, its a "fight them there so we don't have to fight them here" kind of strategy. On the surface, a 5th elf in Lorien chews up a lot more orcs than the 3rd elf in Woodland Realm. However Lorien is conveniently located next to Sauron and Isengard muster HQ. Woodland Realm, Rivendell, and especially Gray Havens are harder to get to.
|
|
|
Post by mrweasely on Sept 6, 2006 17:17:46 GMT 1
The most effective defense of Lorien I've seen so far is Legolas. His Prince of Mirkwood ability means that, on the turn the armies draw near to Lorien, he can move the elves down the political track without using musters. Then, when the siege is set, the musters are still available for bringing in more troops.
Captain of the West turns out to be useful as well.
I saw a game with first-turn-Aragorn, also sending Legolas to Lorien as a side effect. Despite a turn-2 Shadows on the Misty Mountains, the Witch King couldn't get traction against Fortress Lorien. Unique among the last half-dozen plays I've seen, Lorien endured past the opening.
|
|
|
Post by eumaies on Jun 28, 2007 2:56:47 GMT 1
ahh, this site is so much better than ffg. if you're able to get the jump on lorien early with cards or tactics, it's certainly nice, particularly if the elves are late to war and/or when sauron waits 'till the last minute to declare war. but at the same time, i think you take it too far to suggest that attacking a FP 5-strength army in a fortress with a 3-5 leader re-rolls and ability to use companion cards is a good strategy for the bad guys. They have to march armies all the way from isengard or mordor to have enough recruits, and waste hordes of dice in the most innefficient combat situation possible.
so it all comes down to a 2-dice window of opportunity, which i think is a bit weak -- especially when it's only a good opportunity if you happen to have good combat cards to make use of it.
|
|
|
Post by mrweasely on Jun 29, 2007 16:55:34 GMT 1
Instead of mustering the big warg army in Orthanc, I like to muster my big warg army in N. Dunland. What you lose in late-game Voice of Saruman effeciency you gain back in early-game targeting flexibility.
It solves the problem of Mordor having to be at war. It gets you high leadership without having to waste a die on Nazgul moves. And it enables the "Fightin' Uruk Hai" trump against Trebuchets.
Probably the best though is Shadows on the Misty Mountains from Moria, meeting up with Dol Guldur in Dimril Dale.
|
|
|
Post by eumaies on Jul 3, 2007 17:56:11 GMT 1
hey weasely,
i don't disagree in general, but walk me through that muster-sequence for north dunland. How many dice does it cost you and how long does it take?
(i always set up the ents faction first thing, so i'm curious how quickly you pull that army build off)
|
|
|
Post by mrweasely on Jul 3, 2007 19:54:16 GMT 1
It really depends on muster dice more than anything. Lessee, putting one eye in on T1 and T2 gives about 13 dice, so ~4 musters. Two go to getting Saruman. That only leaves two left for Wargs. Obviously, this is not enough to do anything interesting by itself, but note that 2 warg leadership + WK + Dol Guldur Nazgul = 5 leadership, the magic number.
I no longer think that its smart to force Lorien if its looking awkward. Only go if the timing is awkward for the Free People. Since you can see their dice, their cards are irrellevant, and your cards are hidden from them, you really have an informational advantage here.
If I have a mountain of character dice, sometimes I get the Wargs in S. Dunland instead. As they march to the North, they sweep up the rabble that gets mustered there by New Power, Voice, or Dunlendings Faction.
...
The last of the mustering, and the first of the marching, starts on Turn 2.
Turn 3 finishes up the Marching, gets Mordor to war, and begins the attack. Meklor willing, that's the end of Lorien.
|
|
|
Post by eumaies on Jul 5, 2007 23:18:45 GMT 1
got it, so you focus on mustering a collection of wargs but get the extra fodder troops from sauron sources (who declares war at the last minute).
makes sense. i was thinking you planned to move an entire isengard 10 stack up, which would work better if coming from orthanc (and probably through rohan)
|
|